Wikibooks:Requests for undeletion/Rip a karaoke cd

Rip a karaoke cd
See Requests for deletion/Rip a karaoke cd. The recent VFD (from last month, April 2006) had 4 keep votes and 1 delete vote.

User:Jimbo Wales suddenly deleted this at 8 May, claiming that it was "manifestly wrong" and "junk". I wonder whether Jimbo Wales read the module. This appears to be an accident of some sort (though it is spawning rumours that we will delete all how-tos) ... what was so manifestly wrong and junk about the module? It seems like Jimbo Wales did not bother to read the module before deleting it. If it was manifestly wrong and junk, we at Wikibooks would have easily put a pile of Delete votes during the VFD.

There was no reason to delete this, and it should be undeleted – unless Jimbo Wales can explain the reason for deletion that I and others missed during VFD. --Kernigh 01:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think his reason is that it isn't "something that could be used as a textbook in a class taught at some accredited institution." Please see w:User_talk:Jimbo_Wales for a question I asked him about howtos, which would include this module. I'm a bit bummed out by this since it means a lot of useful materials have no home on the wikimedia sites, but I don't think that's his priority. Kellen T 02:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The book is "manifestly wrong" because it can't be used in a classroom, and is therefore against Wikibooks' mission. It's really that simple. However the book is perfect for http://en.howto.wikia.com. While not a Wikimedia project, it's part of the Jimbo-supported Wikia. One man's trash is another's treasure, so please transwiki in order to not lose content. --hagin?az 02:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The module is actually from http://www.opentutorial.com/index.php?title=Rip_a_karaoke_cd under a noncommericial license, but was re-released here at Wikibooks under the GNU Free Documentation License. – There is a need for books about using software. Many persons will spend $50, $100, or more on a large tome about a particular operating system. Here at Wikibooks, I have worked at Guide to Unix, and for completeness I have included in Guide to Unix/Explanations/Compact Discs a section on ripping CDs using the "cdparanoia" software. CD ripping has legitimate applications among persons interested in computers, music, or audio. --Kernigh 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Deleted This page is junk, and doesnt deserve to be here on wikibooks whether or not you like the way that Jimbo comes flying in here from outerspace once a year and makes executive decisions in his usual manner. Besides the moral questions that we need to ask about whether or not wikibooks needs to be a source of material for breaking copyrights, and providing information about stealing intellectual property, we need to ask whether this material manifestly followed policy or not. You need to admit that even if we are only loosely, nominally focused on the "wikibooks is for texbooks" mandate, there is no possible way to justify the "How to Rip a Karaoke CD" staying at wikibooks. Policy may not be 100% specific in all areas, and therefore there is alot of grey area when making decisions of this kind. But just because you don't understand why another user would make such a decision, doesn't mean that the decision is not justifiable, or that it isn't fundamentally the right decision. Get angry at Jimbo's methodology all you want, but don't start making bad VfD and VfU decisions just to spite him. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 17:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As was stated on the VFD, there's absolutely nothing inherently illegal about ripping or burning a karaoke cd. The page may be bad, but muddying the waters with a nonexistant problem doesn't help. Kellen T 20:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment from Kernigh: I started this "VFU" to recover some useful material (because it is my position that CD ripping is a legitimate topic for Wikibooks), not to spite any user. Please do not assume that I or others are doing this because we hate some user. --Kernigh 23:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I will undelete this book temporarily if you want to extract some information from it. It does seem to me that many users take particular offense at the method that Jimbo uses to come flying in here unexpectedly, and make changes. Forgive me for assuming that was your rationale. A general trend over at VfD (and on some policy proposal discussions) is that wikibooks shouldn't be hosting How-To guides that promote illegal activities (theft, hacking, etc), Although it isn't official policy yet. Explaining how to create unauthorized copies of intellectual property is probably not a good thing to host here on wikibooks, although I will be the first to say that wikibooks probably should explain the process of extracting raw digital data from a CD. Call it hypocritical if you will, but calling a page "how to rip a CD" is generally seen as bad, while "Extracting digital data from CD Media" would be seen as OK. I am personally planning a book that will discuss data storage and extraction like this, so I am trying to be very careful with the page names and terminology on this subject. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 16:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I was unaware that copying songs from a CD-Rom to your IPod was illegal. I was also unaware that translating a book into your own language was illegal. Nonetheless, both are "unauthroized copies" of the media.
 * Fair Use laws here in America are very clear on this issue. There is nothing wrong with copying data for personal use. It isn't any more wrong that using a Xerox machine to copy the definition of a word out of the dictionary. --Dragontamer 19:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I may be wrong on this issue, I have been wrong before. I am only human after all. However, the issue of whether the material here is illegal is manifestly irrelevant to the VfU discussion at hand: This book was specifically deleted by Jimbo himself, and as far as I'm concerned, it should stay deleted forever. We can use this experiance to gather information on what types of books do not belong here on wikibooks anymore (for future reference), or we can keep making the same mistakes and act surprised when Jimbo comes flying back in here to clean up our messes for us. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 20:23, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe because I came onto Wikibooks before I discovered Wikipedia that I don't have the respect of Jimbo Wales as you guys do. The way I see it, books are deleted for specific reason. And maybe Jimbo doesn't have enough time to explain what this reason is, but right now, I don't see any. How-To's and Manuals are fully educational material, of which can easily be added on to a full book later on. They are better than stubs because their material is reasonably complete, and they are useful as they are. The fact that The Wikibooks description on wikimediafoundation.org specifically states that manuals are allowed on wikibooks. --Dragontamer 20:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I never spent any time on the 'pedia before coming here. I respect Jimbo because of his position in the wikimedia foundation. If he says a book goes, we can certainly question his reasoning, but i wouldn't dare undo his decision without a damn good reason. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 23:44, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If German was deleted by Jimbo (totally hypothetical situation obviously), wouldn't you question that? When it comes to deletion; the lack of a reason of deletion is far more important than a reason to keep. There is little to no reason to undelete German if it were deleted, aside from what has been brought up here already. This page is useful, and gives information on how to do something. I know it is kinda a silly example to "play along" with, but I'd like to see what kind of argument there is for undeleting German (idealy, an argument that couldn't be applied to this current situation on Rip a karaoke cd), aside from being the Book of the Month :-p. --Dragontamer 19:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment. A couple of for-what-it's-worth comments here.  (1) According to Requests for deletion/Rip a karaoke cd, the reason Jimbo deleted the book was not that it was "manifestly wrong".  In his view (if I interpret his comment correctly), it was the decision to keep the book, not the book itself, that was "maifestly wrong".  He did label it as "junk"; it was not clear this opinion was based on the content or simply that it was a violation of policy (no matter how junky or non-junky the content.)  His reason was for deleting was that the book was not a textbook.  (2)  The previous VfD was raised because of concerns over the illegality of ripping CD-G's, and the entire discussion concerned that one point.  The book as kept because it was felt that ripping CD-G's was not necessarily illegal (there can be and are legal and illegal rippings).  Jimbo deleted it apparently for the very different reason that it was not a textbook.  --JMRyan T E C 20:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Mild keep deleted. I've mostly stayed out of how-to and gaming guide VfD's.  I know that Jimbo does not like them, and I know that there has been some resistance to taking his disapproval as policy.  Official policy does not sanction them; de facto practice has, at least until recently, looked the other way.  Not quite knowing what I think about all that, I've generally stayed out of those VfD's unless I could find a different kind of reason for the vote.  But there has also been more discussion on this recently (much of which I had missed), and the de facto standard seems to me moving toward less tolerance of how-to and gaming guides.  I remember this book as a straight-up how-to and not anything that could pass as a textbook.  I don't remember its quality or lack thereof within the how-to genre.  I am slowing moving toward a "delete 'em" attitude toward how-tos and gaming guides because that is where the defacto standard seems to be moving.  But the waters are still murky here, and I'm still more comfortable letting others vote on these.  --JMRyan T E C 20:05, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep So where the heck do how-to guides fit in in MediaWiki? It appears that our content is more and more being limited. And for the whole time I've been here, it seems like How-To guides were welcome here on Wikibooks. It isn't as much that I want it to stay here as I don't see a reason for how-tos to go away. It seems like mindless cleaning. Why remove an informative piece of work like this? --Dragontamer 21:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it's a guide specifically designed to steal copyrighted material. How-To guides are fine in the case of "How to build a computer", "how to raise a chihuahua", or "how to plant tomatoes". Guides that explicitly talk about how to break the law and steal intellectual property are not alright. Like I mentioned above, if there was some effort to legitimize this book, and make it about the general process of extracting raw digital data from CD media, then it might not have been deleted. A while back, we had a book on here about "How To Rape", and that book got deleted as well. Ripping Karaoke CDs may not be the same thing as raping innocent people, but the argument to delete is the same. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 16:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Just pointing out that this discussion has continued to somewhere in the middle of the page :-p Just if someone wanted to know... --Dragontamer 19:35, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep deleted It's quite simply not a textbook - end of story, Jguk 07:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * My argument is that this is simply a stub with a focused title. If there was a computer tech book with this exact page on it, this would easily be considered a stub. The only thing that needs to change is the title. --Dragontamer 12:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete the damn thing! When I posted this I had no idea that it would stir up such a hornets nest. I also was quite new to Wikibooks. It is not a text book, maybe some info could be used in a different book, then again maybe not. I did not mean to offend  anyone buy creating this "junk", nor was it my intention to start an international ring of karaoke CD pirates. Maybe it should be renamed to "How to Extract Digital Data From CD Media", but that seems as silly as renaming "How to Steal" to "How to borrow things indefinitely". "How Tos" are useful. In the future if anyone wants to create how to articles, please feel free to post them at www.OpenTutorial.com BTW, I really do love Wikibooks, Wikipedia, and MediaWiki also I plan to contribute  less "junk" in the future. --Hapa 19:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep deleted - I originally weighed in with a "neutral" vote on the VfD. I strongly disagree with the approach that Jimbo took to remove this content, and I think it was more an objection to the title rather than the content of this Wikibook.  As far as being a textbook, using that as justification for removing content is about as lame as it gets.  Anything and everything can be deleted because it doesn't fit one particular vision of what a textbook should be.  When I've argued in the VfD forum that something should be deleted, I try to find multiple reasons for removing content, with the most serious reasons for deletions not because it may be textbook or not, but because it might violate copyright, original research, or violate several standards like NPOV or even plagurism.  All of these, sometimes seemingly violating every standard in WB:WIW can be applied.  In this case I think this book violated the principle of Wikibooks is not a soapbox, as there is a subtle political message to the content of this page.  I also believe that content that encourages illegal activity should be discouraged.  This is very borderline on if it is legal.  The role of Wikibook stubs is something to argue in another forum and not here.  --Rob Horning 10:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Undelete - There was NO reason to delete it, it could have just been put on cleanup. --Je suis 02:51, 21 June 2006 (UTC)