Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/Wikijunior:Solar System/About gravity, mass, and weight

Wikijunior:Solar System/About gravity, mass, and weight
This page is very out of place in the book. It introduces more topics than it explains. It invites an unnessesary fight over kilograms, newtons, pounds-as-force, pounds-as-mass, slugs, and stones. It invites the use of units where none are needed. It's wordy, meandering, full of tables, and mismatched for style. Most importantly though, it has almost nothing to do with the Solar System. It's a soapbox for people to rant and rave about their favorite definition of "weight" and "pound". There's even a proposed replacement now, which is slightly better. (though that one also probably doesn't belong in a Solar System book) AlbertCahalan 03:07, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Also, it somehow manages to be rather complex for the intended audience (kids) and condescending at the same time. AlbertCahalan 03:09, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep and Clean up - I differ on the opinion that it is out of place for this book. This doesn't violate any Wikibooks policies other than perhaps the fact that it is in the middle of an edit war with some harsh feeling and multiple schools of thought on the topic.  The whole discussion resulted from somebody trying to add to each Solar System module a brief line that said something like "if you weighed 100 lbs on the Earth, you would weigh 60 lbs on this planet" and then objections were raised over even having that in the modules.  Make sure that you read the two talk pages (yes, it has spilled over that much, and even more):  Wikijunior talk:Solar System/About gravity, mass, and weight and Wikijunior talk:Solar System/How much would I weigh on X.  That this is a discussion of what sort of content should be in here is appropriate, but to force a VfD discussion on this subject is out of order.  This whole episode seems to stem from one contributor who doesn't want to compromise on his position and reverts any edits that don't support his viewpoint.  To simply delete the module due to controversy is just adding gasoline to the fire that is already burning hard.  --Rob Horning 16:41, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I never said it violated policy, though I guess it might. It can't stand by itself as a book, which it must do because it sure doesn't belong in any existing book. AlbertCahalan 04:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * If it doesn't violate any existing policy, what is your justification for deletion other than you simply don't like the content and it doesn't work for you? That is hardly an argument to support a VfD.  --Rob Horning 17:53, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * When I edit an article, I may improve it by removing some text. The end result may be clearer, less bloated and wordy, and not meandering off topic. When I edit a book, I may improve it by removing some pages. The only difference is that page removal can require VfD, while simple text removal does not. If we may only delete pages that clearly violate some policy, then we can not trim out the cruft. Creating a book means editing, which may involve the somewhat painful removal of parts that are out of place. AlbertCahalan 20:34, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * The edit war is a symptom of a problem: this content does not belong. If the page had a useful purpose, it would be filled in properly and nobody would be fighting over it. AlbertCahalan 04:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * As for the edit war being a problem, yes indeed. This book is sponsored by a financial grant to the Wikimedia foundation. We're supposed to get it done and send it off to be printed on paper. We're late. Ditching this worthless page would get one obstacle out of the way. AlbertCahalan 04:50, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * As for the Beck Foundation grant, I still have yet to see a copy of the formal agreement that specifically states what the Wikimedia Foundation is expected to do in order to get the money, exactly which "Beck Foundation" the grant was from with their contact information (although a slight clarification seems to be on Meta at the moment, but it is pure hearsay at the moment), and absolutely no information about what deadlines were expected in order for the Foundation to get any money. None at all... look it up if you care to.  The complete vacuum of specific information regarding this grant has made me suspicious that it even existed in the first place even though it has been widly discussed in many places.  I can't even find who "signed" the RfP submission and who is "taking responsibility" for the grant.  The most "detailed" information is at http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Grant_report/2004 and even that information is sketchy at best.  That page links to the Meta page about Wikijunior, which gives no additional information. As for the deadline, there is none other than some suggestions from fellow editor/contributors to Wikibooks who have simply set some goals.  That we have missed those self-imposed goals is irrelevant anyway, other than perhaps we need to do some more recruitment for Wikijunior in general to get more help.  Certainly I'm not being paid to meet a deadline, nor should anybody else here be expected to complete the very difficult task of completing a book on a hard deadline when all of the content is provided through volunteer labor. The merit of having or not having a specific module in a Wikibook may be something to vote on or argue within that group of book participants as a sub-community.  It does not have to be something that is brought up to the level of the whole Wikibooks community at large except perhaps to help resolve a POV dispute, which in this case needs some moderators who are willing to objectively look at the arguments and suggest potential solutions, not arbitrary kill the discussion by deleting the page altogether.  --Rob Horning 17:37, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Some of the specific, incorrect statements earlier contained in the modules for individual bodies include these:
 * If you were able to stand on the surface of Oberon, you would only weigh one-twenty eighth as much as you would on the Earth. Something that had a weight of twenty eight kilograms on Earth would only weigh a single kilogram on Oberon.
 * If you stood on Ariel's surface, you would weigh 0.27 times what you do on earth. Aperson woho weighs 100 lbs wuld weigh 27 lbs on Ariel.
 * You would weigh less than a hundred and twenty fourth of what you would weigh on the Earth. A person who weighed one hundred and twenty four kilograms on Earth would only weigh one kilograms on Miranda.
 * This is a small world and a person standing on the surface would only weigh about a twenty sixth as much as they would on the Earth. A person who weighed 130 pounds (59 kg) on the Earth would only weigh 5 pounds (2.3 kg) on Titania.
 * This is only a small moon that has very low gravity. A person standing on Nereid would only weigh about 1/137 as much as they would on Earth. A typical person would weigh less than a kilogram.
 * If you weighed 100 units, your weight on Neptune would be 109.6 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on Neptune, just take your weight from Earth, or the doctor's office, and multiply it by 1.096.
 * On the moon you way just about 1/6 of your weight on the Earth. If you weighed 100 units, your weight on the Moon would be 16.2 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on the Moon, just take your weight from Earth, or the doctor's office, and multiply it by 0.162. [First sentence was added by User:Batjew on 2 Jan 2005]
 * If you weighed 100 units, your weight on Pluto would be 6.9 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on Pluto, just take your weight from Earth, and multiply it by 0.069. [On 30 Jan 2005 User:24.2.150.174 removed comma appositive "or the doctor's office" after Earth]
 * If you weighed 100 units, your weight on Uranus would be 90.3 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on Uranus, just take your weight from Earth, or the doctor's office, and multiply it by 0.903.
 * If you weighed 100 units, your weight on Saturn would be 106.6 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on Saturn, just take your weight from Earth, or the doctor's office, and multiply it by 1.066.
 * If you weighed 100 units, your weight on Jupiter would be 252.9 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on Jupiter, just take your weight from Earth, or the doctor's office, and multiply it by 2.529.
 * If you weighed 100 units, your weight on Mercury would be 37.8 units. If you want to find out exactly how much you would weigh on Mercury, just take your weight from Earth, or the doctor's office, and multiply it by 0.378. In other words, you'd weigh a little more than one third of what you do on Earth.
 * There are others have not yet been fixed. Some remain, even with the separate "About gravity, mass, and weight" module.  Metric1000 05:32, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Deletion policy says that In general, keep modules that need heavy editing.... I believe that the current version contains unnecessary content and contradicts WB:NPOV. If the alternate version becomes better, this module might become a redirect, but I would not delete it. --Kernigh 18:42, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment : I certainly agree that currently it is out of kilter with the rest of the book. Perhaps the vote should be on whether units or the word "mass" should appear in the text; if the result were nay, editing flashpoints might be avoided (see About weight and gravity talk). I note the topic also has a mention here and please see here for a related question. Thanks - David Kernow 02:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. AlbertCahalan hasn't participated in the editing of any module in Wikijunior:Solar System, and doesn't have clue one as to what belongs in that book. This page was a replacement for sections formerly appearing on the pages for each individual celestial body in the book.  Metric1000 05:19, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * It's interesting that you chose to attack me instead of disputing my arguments for deletion. As for you, you were very obviously involved in the edit war and are thus not even remotely unbiased. AlbertCahalan 20:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. We need this page. Even though this book isn't for anyone over the age of 12, we can't just say "you would weigh X on this planet" and not explain why. Sure, it isn't necessary to a Solar Sytem book, but this is information kids would be interested in. I remember finding it cool when we calculated how much we weighed in Jupiter in grade 7. I personally don't want to get involved in the current dispute, but I will try to help make this module clear and kid-friendly.--Shanel 20:05, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Apropos Shanel's last comment, please consider Any target audience trials?
 * Thanks, David Kernow 00:50, 30 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Keep - Although it is a shame that such a potentially informative page has degenerated to its current state, and that it has sparked such a large controversy. Several things need to happen for this page to be acceptable in this wikibook: 1) it needs to be cleaned up, 2) it needs to be directed at children, and 3) the issues surrounding which units and which words to use needs to be solved and standardized, not only for that page, but for the entire wikibook. I do understand the argument that the word "weight" can be used in different contexts as both force and mass. However, I think that the fact that the page title predicates that the quantity in question changes by locale, that by definition we are talking about weight as a force, and not as a term for mass. I also would like to posit that renaming the page to "how will my downward force quantity change by relocating to different planets" is a bit dense for a child. With that definition aside, we can certainly include a footnote that mentions that in certain contexts the word "weight" can have an ambiguous meaning, although we need to keep in mind that particular note will be very difficult for some children to handle. If, however, the page does not clean up, does not focus on children, and cannot solve its disputes, I vote that it should get deleted and removed from the book entirely, until such time as contributers are willing and able to produce a more acceptable entry for the topic. --Whiteknight T C E 03:18, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment : I certainly agree that some of the language currently being used is inappropriate, as would be any discussion of units. I think it sufficient to point out that scientists use the word "weight" differently once (changes in) gravity is/are invoked. For an attempt at a "mass"-free, "force"-free and unit-free version of the module, please see Wikijunior:Solar System/About weight and gravity and comment on its talk page. Thank you. David Kernow 17:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep : This section of the book should remain availabe to give an introduction to the concepts detailed. Michael S Costello 11:38, 5 November 2005 (US-CDT)