Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/Various FAQ pages

Various FAQ pages
This VfD is about the following pages:


 * FAQ for alt.internet.wireless
 * Talk:FAQ for alt.internet.wireless
 * FAQ for alt.internet.wireless/Cellular
 * FAQ for alt.internet.wireless/Fixed Terrestial Wireless
 * FAQ for alt.internet.wireless/Satellite
 * FAQ for alt.internet.wireless/Wi-Fi
 * FAQ for alt.internet.wireless/WiMAX


 * Renaming These pages have now been renamed to Wireless Internet as a first step in making the general textbook nature more clear, removing (a) the use of the term "FAQ" and (b) direct association with the [news:alt.internet.wireless alt.internet.wireless] newsgroup. (The old names are preserved as Redirects.) The new names are:
 * Wireless Internet
 * Talk:Wireless Internet
 * Wireless Internet/Cellular
 * Wireless Internet/Fixed Terrestial Wireless
 * Wireless Internet/Satellite
 * Wireless Internet/Wi-Fi
 * Wireless Internet/WiMAX
 * --John Navas 15:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

These were initially speedily deleted on the grounds that they are clearly not textbooks. Whilst the majority of commentators on VfU agree with this, some, including those who are not admins and so cannot review the deleted text have questioned this. Additionally there has been a suggestion that although these pages are not yet textbook pages, they could be reorganised as such. I have therefore responded to a request to undelete them to allow a normal VfD discussion to take place. Additionally, this will give a short time period to see whether the pages will indeed be turned into a textbook. Finally, as VfD has more traffic than VfU, we may get additional comments from others, Jguk 16:51, 21 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Rebuttal by Jnavas:
 * These are not "Various FAQ pages" (a demeaning characterization that exemplifies this issue) -- they are integrated "instructional resources" (which specifically includes "manuals and other texts") on Wireless Internet.
 * The "majority of commentators on VfU" did not agree that appropriate action was taken. See discussion in WB:VfU.
 * These pages don't fall under What Wikibooks is not.
 * This book represented a great deal of ongoing work over several months, and is widely referenced. Objections raised in a timely manner were addressed. (See Talk:FAQ for alt.internet.wireless) All of this should have been taken into consideration.
 * This book was "initially speedily deleted" without warning or even notice. There were no grounds for such immediate summary deletion, which was contrary to Deletion policy:Guidelines for admins (1, 4, 5, and 6), and Etiquette:Votes for deletion.
 * The objection is apparently to labeling and style, not content, which aren't valid grounds for immediate summary deletion.
 * The main justification for immediate summary deletion was that Jguk was in a hurry. That action was cavalier, unwarranted, unnecessarily harmful, contrary to published policies, and a discredit to Wikimedia. (I now understand what has been turning so many people off.)
 * --John Navas 03:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Merge. I am tempted to say delete, on the basis of the "Wikibooks is not a website provider" policy. After all, this appears to be material specifically for the alt.internet.wireless newsgroup, by that newsgroup's members. However, I notice that some of that information could probably be merged into the Communication Systems wikibook, which deals with the technical aspect of electrical communications without requiring allegiance to any particular newsgroup. I therefore change my vote to say that any material that doesnt specifically deal with the alt.internet.wireless newsgroup should be merged into Communication Systems, and information that is specific to that newsgroup should be summarily deleted. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects)


 * I beg to differ. Jeff Liebermann:
 * The only thing specific to alt.internet.wireless is the title. Change the title and purpose statement to Wireless Internet and it magically becomes a book of general technical interest.  It should not be merged with Communication Systems because the current FAQ has a much different purpose.  Communication Systems is primarily interested in the intricacy of radio communications.  Wireless Internet is specifically interested in the implimentation and use of internet access using various forms of wireless communications.  Were these to be merged, the divergent purposes would certainly create a muddle.  Technical datacommm users could care less about configuring a consumer grade wireless access point, and consumers would be lost in the technobabble found under Communication Systems.
 * --Jeff Liebermann 6:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That was only a single suggestion. It's not just changing the title, there are a number of pages that specifically reference various newsgroups. Wikibooks is not a personal webhost for these news groups to use for their own benefit or advertisement. I am not voting to delete these pages, but as they stand now they are unacceptable. The titles certainly must change, and the book must be set up so that non-newsgroup members can read them and have the same benefit. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 18:10, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The title has now been changed to Wireless Internet as a first step in making the general textbook nature more clear, removing (a) the use of the term "FAQ" and (b) direct association with the [news:alt.internet.wireless alt.internet.wireless] newsgroup. (The old names are preserved as Redirects.) See above for the new names. --John Navas 15:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep As is. While most of it is admittingly stubby material, clearly "Accredited institutions" would teach about Wi-Fi and Cell Phones. As for alt.internet.wireless newsgroup; what is wrong with a particular group making a book? Most books by multiple authors are from the same community. Clearly, anyone can benifit from this knowledge. --Dragontamer 00:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The issue here is that these are FAQs, they are not part of a textbook, and only textbooks should be on Wikibooks. None of the above addresses that issue - and yet that is the determinant as to what is and is not on wikibooks. That this content has some use and applicability is an argument for it to be somewhere on the web, but is irrelevant as to whether it belongs on Wikibooks. Since these pages were listed on VfD there has been no attempt to turn them into a textbook. I do think it is fair to ask (1) whether there is an intention to change the text so that it is suitable for a textbook, (2) whether, regardless of the answer to the first question, you would be better off putting this info on another website? Jguk 11:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Response:
 * If you actually read these pages you will see that they are more a textbook than a traditional FAQ:
 * [From Votes for undeletion] May I call to the attention of those participating in this discussion that the pages in question are an FAQ in name only. If you would kindly look at the various pages, you will note that they are NOT in the traditional question and answer format considered to be the hallmark of an internet FAQ.  I just looked at all the pages and found no questions and answers.  Change the title and a few references to alt.internet.wireless, and it could easily be construed as instructional material for a class in wireless internet access. --Jeff Liebermann 11:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The title has now been changed to Wireless Internet as a first step in making the general textbook nature more clear, removing (a) the use of the term "FAQ" and (b) direct association with the [news:alt.internet.wireless alt.internet.wireless] newsgroup. (The old names are preserved as Redirects.) See above for the new names.
 * --John Navas 15:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just don't see what qualification they fail to meet in terms of "textbook" as they are. Could you explain? The last thing I want around wikibooks is "Open-Content textbooks that we like collection". Jguk, you say they aren't "textbooks", but you haven't said why they aren't textbooks yet, which is why Jnvas and I are still arguing. --Dragontamer 14:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * When I last looked at them they were FAQs, and a textbook cannot consist wholly of FAQs. The authors appear now to be rearranging the text and making it more textbookish. I intend to wait a while and then recheck to see whether that is being achieved, Jguk 07:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Ever read "The little Schemer" ?? It is a textbook from MIT press, but it is organized as an FAQ on Scheme. "C++ a Dialog" is mostly an FAQ format too, though it is more of a mix between a FAQ and a classic Textbook. English 3200 is also another Textbook based purely on Question/Answer format. --Dragontamer 11:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response to Jguk by John Navas
 * Not really FAQs: As has been pointed out a number of times, these pages were FAQs in name only (and are now not even that) -- the actual content was (and is) classic text, not questions and answers.
 * Questions still open: You've still not responded to important questions, particularly with regard to other content I've founded here, a matter of great concern to me.
 * Ball is in your court: I've now completed the renaming and basic reworking of this book in a good faith attempt to overcome your objections, and don't intend to do anything more in that context. If you're now satisfied, then let's put this issue behind us; if you're still not satistfied, then we won't waste any more time and effort on Wikibooks -- we'll focus entirely on moving our content elsewhere, along with all other content we've created here. (We're not comfortable with the attitude here, so that may well be best in any event.)
 * --John Navas 14:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Vote on New Format
There are a few factors here that have changed or been demonstrated since the beginning of this VfD, and I think therefore that this requires a new vote:


 * 1) The pages were renamed to not be called "FAQ", and not to specifically mention alt.internet.wireless
 * 2) The general format of the book was changed to not completely be an FAQ (although there are some demonstrations that real-life textbooks can be FAQs)
 * 3) The editors of this book have demonstrated a strong desire to contribute this book, and have made changes quickly. Many books that we do keep don't have as strong a contribution base.

Because of these 3 factors, I am changing my vote to Keep, and I encourage other voters to do the same. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 14:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep and merge Wifi, WiFi, and Wireless Home Network Basics into the appropriate sections if I'm reading the book correctly as geared to consumers and enthusiasts.. --haginძaz 15:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep and Merge (Wifi, WiFi, and Wireless Home Network Basics into Wireless Internet/Wi-Fi) as recommended by haginძaz (assuming Keep is the unambiguous outcome here). Wireless Internet is indeed geared to consumers and enthusiasts. --John Navas 17:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * These pages have now been re-ordered so as to look like the beginnings of a textbook. As long as it continues to be structured as a textbook, I will have no difficulty with it, though I do note that textbooks are geared towards students, and not to consumers and enthusiasts, Jguk 09:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Consumers and entusiasts sometimes form the core audience of a certain class (such as a class on how to use Windows), so I don't see any conflict in that regard. --hagindaz 16:07, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm uncomfortable with that attitude and implied threat, so I intend to move these (and other) pages to [Wikia], making the issue moot. --John Navas 16:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * If you choose to move the pages, that is up to you. But what I said was not meant to be a threat - wikibooks is for textbooks. It follows that if something is a textbook or part of a textbook it is within our scope, if it is not, then it will be removed. That goes for every single module on here, Jguk 07:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree. --John Navas 16:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a shame that it has to end like that. Wikibooks does need more information on material of that nature, even if the target audience isnt spot-on with the wikibooks intended audience. In the future, hopefully, we can create a new book on this topic to fill in the void. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 01:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree on all counts. I nonetheless thank you for your courtesy and professionalism -- you are a credit to Wikimedia. --John Navas 16:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Content Removed from Wikibooks
All of this content has now been moved from Wikibooks to Wireless Wiki, making this VfD moot. These Wikibooks pages are now just redirects to Wireless Wiki with VfD removed. Please leave/keep them that way. (I intend to remove my other books from Wikibooks as time permits.) --John Navas 16:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)