Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/SimCity

SimCity
Another Strategy guide. I have copied it to http://wikidream.elwiki.com/SimCity  M in un  Spiderman  15:48, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Speedy delete as per policy (transwikied to more appropriate wiki). --Swift 04:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. I'll work on deleting all these videogame guides that have already been transwikied sometime tonight, hopefully. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 14:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete. It's a guide and not Wikibook material. Xania 21:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. I would like to point out that this is as much a study guide for urban planning which uses a video game as a text, as it is a video game guide. It may need a clean-up to reduce the emphasis on the game (for instance, it should almost certainly be renamed something like Urban Planning and some of the pages dealing solely with the game should be dropped, but - given that some first year urban planning classes do use SimCity as a text, i would argue that it is worth keeping around.

Consider the Preface:


 * A comprehensive strategy guide for those playing SimCity (and its various spinoffs).
 * A useful book for anyone conducting research into the game.
 * An introduction to the basic concepts of real-life Urban planning and Municipal government, as used in the SimCity games (with potential use in :urban planning or civics classes).


 * Given the potential use of SimCity games in Urban Planning or Civics classes, this book will explain how various real-life Planning concepts have been incorporated into the game. For game-players, this will add depth to the explanations of the real-life basis of key elements of the game. For educators and students, this will allow this book to function as a 'study-guide' for courses which use SimCity to introduce basic concepts of Urban Planning and Design, as well as Municipal government (including Municipal fiscal management).

- SimCity/Preface (Emphasis mine)

Points one and two should be dropped here, but - as the boldened text and point three here show - it has been designed (from the beginning) as a study guide for urban planning which uses a video game as an example text. The point is made even clearer in the introduction:


 * Given the potential use of SimCity games in urban planning courses, this book will explain how various real-life planning concepts have been incorporated into the game. For game-players, this will add depth to the explanations of elements of the game. For educators and students, this will allow this book to function as a 'study-guide' for courses which use SimCity to introduce basic concepts of urban planning, design, as well as government, and fiscal management. So, for example, the section on Building Transportation will include a description of the importance of transport planning in real-life urban planning, as well as its incorporation into SimCity.

- SimCity/Introduction (Again, emphasis mine)

So how much of this is a game guide and how much deals with urban planning? Well, consider the chapter on municipal infrastructure (content dealing with municipal infrastructure is in bold):


 * Municipal infrastructure typically includes transportation, sewer, reservoir, potable water supply systems, police stations and local jails, and other infrastructural capital - the built environment - under the jurisdiction of a municipal government or other local government.


 * The terms urban infrastructure and rural development are often used interchangeably but imply either large cities or developing nations' concerns respectively. The terms public infrastructure or critical infrastructure are also used interchangeably but suggest the inclusion of some facilities like hospitals, banks and concerns like national security and terrorism which are not under the mandate of municipal officials alone.


 * Typically, infrastructure in the urban context denotes two general groups of support systems: transportation modalities (roads, rail, etc.) and utilities. These typically compose both public and private systems, and some ambiguously held in common.


 * Infrastructure may also refer to necessary municipal or public services, whether provided by the government or by private companies. If provided by nature, e.g. the flow of a river, they are called nature's services and are distincted (at least in economics) as the product of natural capital. This may be augmented or directed by infrastructural capital, e.g. a dam or canal or irrigation ditch. In general what is called infrastructure tends to be very embedded in the natural landscape and cannot be moved from place to place. Even municipal services rely necessarily on fixed locations, e.g. fire stations in central positions in a city, radio towers on tall buildings, etc.


 * Beyond transport (which is discussed in another chapter), Urban infrastructure includes:
 * Public utilities
 * Electricity
 * Natural gas
 * Coal delivery
 * Water supply
 * Sewers
 * Telephone service
 * Radio and television bandwidth allocation
 * Cable television service
 * Public services
 * Fire service or fire department
 * Flood protection
 * Police protection
 * Waste management
 * National Services
 * Defense
 * Monetary systems or currency, including the minting of coins, and printing and backing of banknotes.
 * Postal system
 * "Soft Infrastructure" is a term that denotes institutions that maintain the health and cultural standards of the population. Principally, this refers to:
 * Public education
 * Public health systems including public hospitals
 * Public libraries
 * Social welfare


 * ===In SimCity===
 * A key aspect of SimCity is building tiles representing different utilities, public services, and soft infrastructure.

- SimCity/Municipal Infrastructure (Again, emphasis mine)

Obviously, most of the chapter deals with Municipal Infrastructure, with but one sentence on the game.

I say this needs a clean up, with the video game de-emphasised, some of the pages deleted, and a new name. But the core of this book is indeed salvagable. - AmishThrasher 08:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Update: I've separated what I believe is salvagable from what isn't. Urban Planning probably needs a clean up, but is worth keeping. SimCity can go. For the material left over on SimCity, I say delete. - AmishThrasher 08:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This is, i think, an interesting project, and one that I am inclined to watch closely. If we think of SimCity less like a "game", and more like a "city simulator", then suddenly the material fits the wikibooks mould. Consider other games, like "America's Army", a game that was created by the US military as a combat simulator long before it became a popular game among teens. Instead of a strategy guide "How to be awesome at America's Army", you said "Combat tactics and strategies using America's Army as a simulator", everything would be fine with me (of course it would be up to the contributors to ensure that the content matched the scholarly aim of the title). Kudos. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 21:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete. I would be receptive to the idea of a book that discusses SimCity in the context of Urban Planning, but this is a book that discusses (discussed) Urban Planning in the context of SimCity. The Wikibooks mold goes beyond how you think about the book and into how you write it. This book's content is "How to play SimCity", not "Lessons in Urban Planning from SimCity". --Brian Brondel 18:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The book was created from material salvaged from the SimCity book, and it is rediculous to think that it would become a perfectly acceptable book overnight. The creation of a new book, even with some seed material, is a long and difficult process, and we must all remember that book creation (especially books on the boarderline of acceptability) takes time. The book does have a particular mission: "Urban Planning using SimCity simulations", and there is an active author who seems to want to work to improve the book. The fact that the book currently doesnt live up to it's own aim is only a matter of poor timing. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 21:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * PS Also, this VfD is for the deletion of the SimCity book, not the Urban Planning book. If you want to discuss the deletion of the later, you need to create a separate nomination. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 21:38, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I was referring to SimCity. If someone is interested in developing something along the lines of "Lessons in Urban Planning from SimCity," and wants to use the existing material as a starting point, I'm all for that. --Brian Brondel 01:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I misunderstood you. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 01:55, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep - Books about educational simulation games are very useful educational modules.  For example, see the conference on Simulation and Gaming at College of Management, Georgia Institute of Technology with the accompanying faculty workshop and teachers' workshop.  Please also see the Games in Education conference sponsored by partnership of MIT and University of Wisconsin.  Also, the book SimCity should not be renamed as Urban Planning.  Urban planning is a large field, like computer science, with graduate degrees and areas of specialization.  All books which would be useful in a PhD or masters degree program in urban planning should not be put under the title "Urban Planning"... just as all books about computer programming should not all be put under one book name of "Computer Programming".  -- KHatcher 16:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment - Wikibooks policy should make a distinction between (1) entertainment video games with no educational value and (2) educational simulation software programs which could be used in a classroom. Books which would help a college class to use the educational computer software are suitable for Wikibooks.  Educational computer software which has been written to make learning enjoyable and more memorable -- by teaching system relationships in "game" format -- should get extra credit as an advanced education method, rather than disregard and mis-classification as entertainment.  Educational simulation games can be very helpful in the classroom; please see references in my "Keep" statement above.  -- KHatcher 21:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep-SimCity has vast potential as both a Wikibook for Urban Planning and a game guide. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RubberDuck (talk • contribs) 23:17, 29 Nov 2006  (UTC)


 * Delete For thosee that have actually looked into the subject, you should know that the urban planning knowledge (which was almost solely about urban planning) has been moved out. If anything, "lessons learned from simcity about urban planning" would do better as a chapter in that book than as an entire book itself. Really, if we want to present knowledge on urban planning, it's not necessary to present it in the context of a video game.
 * It's not "necessary" to present any subject matter in terms of simulation software, but that doesnt stop people from doing it. If we have a book on urban planning, and if that book happens to use SimCity as a simulator for the topics discussed, then that's a benefit. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 03:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the issue of whether the SimCity stuff should be a chapter or a separate book is better left to the writers and urban planning instructors than to the community at large. Either is allowed (according to consenus so far), subject to the caveats discussed here. At the same time, I approved earlier of keeping SimCity because I was under the impression that someone wanted to use it to develop it into an educational resource. That hasn't happened, and as more time passes I'm inclined to change my vote back. --140.252.3.207 01:49, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Closed. Concensus so far seems to be to delete the SimCity book, but to allow the Urban Planning book to exist using SimCity-based games as simulation software for teaching the subject. I will delete the SimCity book myself soon (unless somebody else does it first). --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 02:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)