Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/Rip a karaoke cd

Rip a karaoke cd
I believe that since illegal activity has it's boundaries in Wikibooks, that this article should be deleted. I find this page to be irrelevant and non-essential. Ripping a CD might be useful, but I see no point in having an article about ripping a karaoke CD. Both are considered illegal anyway. Also, if my illegal article (AIM Password Cracking) has been deleted, I don't see why we should keep this one either. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.92.94.254 (talk • contribs).


 * Comment - The problem with this book, as I've pointed out on the Staff Lounge, is that we really don't have a policy to block this sort of content. AIM Password Cracking was marked for speedy deletion by a user who has only participated on Wikibooks for deletion or undeletion votes alone, and not for any other policy decisions or content.  The only reason I support either of these modules for deletion is because they are poor quality in terms of content and are destined to become eternal stubs.  In theory this VfD is also premature and should be taken down, because the "one month time limit" for new modules hasn't occured either, nor has the author been given a chance to respond to these concerns in a more reasoned and less threating approach by simply using the talk pages (user talk pages and content talk page) to try and resolve what is really just an NPOV dispute here.  Only under the most extreme situations should NPOV alone be justification for deletion of content, and that only if the user is not willing to compromise.  And ripping a CD is not illegal... that is by defintion fair-use (personal fair-use... see WB:FUP for some details and links to laws about this).  Please don't abuse the VfD forum in this way if there is an active user still contributing and you are too lazy to try and resolve the issue with the user who added this content.  --Rob Horning 14:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Ripping a Karaoke CDG, because it has a video component it falls into a different category of copyright law and is most likely not legal. As I worte in my Talk Page 'Tis no big deal ... at the very minimum it survives at OpenTutorial:Rip_a_karaoke_cd Don't forget when you delete it to delete the images also (I doubt they'd be useful anywhere else.) I hope the author of (AIM Password Cracking) feels better now. --Hapa 21:36, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Personal fair-use is about moving multi-media content from one medium to another. Sony vs. Betamax resolved this issue completely for videotapes, and is cited in almost every other media transfer case as well.  As long as what you do doesn't leave your home or go outside of your immediate family, it is perfectly legal, regardless of what the RIAA and MPAA would have you believe.  The minute you give a copy to a friend or more distant relative, it becomes a copyright violation instead, and this is where the book covers illegal activity.  Or if you "donate" the original copy, you must destroy all of the copies at the same time, or give them all away to the same person at the same time (1st sale doctrine).  --Rob Horning 13:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Karaoke CD+G discs aren't really video. They are normal audio CDs with a subchannel of data that allows the display of 16 color graphics on a raster field which is only 294 x 204 in size. If you've used them in a karaoke machine you can plainly see the scanlines as the data is slowly read and the screen redrawn. I don't see how they would be exempt from a consumer's right to make backup copies of their CD+G collection, possibly for easier transport. I could see myself using this tutorial as president of my university's Karaoke Club. Currently we need to lug around several binders full of CDs to our meeting space, along with a big karaoke machine. When we get there there is dead time as people try to locate songs they want to sing and at the end of the night the CDs are all out of order. By ripping them to a laptop with TV-out, we could save time and trouble. Many karaoke DJs do this already to bring many karaoke songs to events. --Everlong 10:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep So which part was illegal? This is not like the AIM Password Cracking book that instructs you to infect someone with a trojan. I do not know about CD+G specifically, but... (1) It is not illegal to rip public domain or GNU GPLed songs from a CD. (2) Technically, some configurations require that one rip a CD before playing it. For example, Mac OS 9 and later rip the CD, playing the audio instead of saving it to a file.... Encoding to MP3 is illegal in the United States (and apparently Australia, and possibly some other places) unless the developer of the encoder paid for patent license. At worst, I would expect someone to complain that the encoder in MP3+G Toolz is from a foreign country such as Canada. --Kernigh 05:58, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Ripping a CD and forming a Kareoke CD are not inherently illegal. Doing so with some songs or using the CD in a for profit matter might be, but that depends heavily on what juridstiction you are in.  This is not a case like the rape manual where someone is actively suggesting means of harming your fellow people, this is telling people how to get music from one format to another.  As such I see no reason to delete this data.--Gabe Sechan 16:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete According to this information: U.S. software companies lose up to $12 billion a year to piracy, according to the Software and Information Industry Association. Music companies lost more than $4.6 billion worldwide last year, according to the RIAA, and movie industry officials pegged their annual losses from bootlegged films at more than $3.5 billion. I believe that this is promoting ways for people to conduct illegal activity and help lessen economic growth, not only in the U.S., but around the world.


 * If you read the article you linked, you would have noticed that the very last line said "there are exceptions under copyright law, such as one that allows people to make backup copies of their software and other media." Of course the RIAA and MPAA will deny any digital rights consumers are allowed with their media, but the fact remains that this is not illegal. Digital Rights Management is very controversial because it apparently restricts the legal rights of law-abiding consumers while does little or nothing to stop big-time pirate factories producing knock-off goods. For an illuminating discussion of the issue, peruse the website of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an organization devoted to protecting citizens' digital rights.


 * If, however, you want to believe everything that the RIAA says, then even copying files from a CD to an iPod is not covered under Fair Use . The music industry has opposed every innovation they faced, from player pianos to cassettes VCRs--when the industries have not been destroyed, but profited immensely through new technologies. Indeed, it's doubtful that iPods or legal online music stores like iTunes would even be legal to invent in the next few years if our laws keep on developing under current trends.


 * The debate is more complicated than the (inflated) losses claimed by the industry, because copyrights are meant to "encourage the useful arts", not protect the profits of a specific industry. The cost to consumers of IP is the ignored half of the equation, along with derivative works and innovative technologies that are blocked by current law. I believe this stifling policy is dooming the industry more than any disruptive technology could have. - Everlong 17:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep Should probably be merged with some general CD/DVD-ripping howto. Kellen T 11:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Kept because there are not enough delete votes above. I would now remove the vfd tag, but the page never had one. --Kernigh 02:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I deleted it myself because it is manifestly not a textbook. Admins remember: we do not vote, we follow policy.  If a vote is manifestly wrong, ignore it, and delete the junk anyway.  Wikibooks deserves the respect that all projects have for themselves: do not allow yourself to be a dumping ground for stuff that is rejected from other projects.--Jimbo Wales 13:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I am so utterly confused by this. It just boggles my mind. Clearly, this book would fall under a how-to guide catagory, unless Jimbo is thinking about deleting the whole entire How-tos bookshelf along with this. Of all the books on that bookshelf, this one had the most useful and practical information regarding information technology.


 * I really dunno what to say by this. By this move, it seems that there is nothing that fits wikibooks that is on wikibooks right now. I would consider this Rip a karaoke CD more "textbook" than at least 5 of the current bookshelves.


 * What? Do we have a length requirement now? Or is Ripping karaoke CDs not educational at all? Is it a textbook if it is longer?


 * I find this funny that in the entire conversation so far, and of all the admins (at least 2 off the top of my head) who participated in this debate, no one seemed to think this violated WB:WIW. The only controversy point was legal vs illegal, which we voted on as legal really. And after a nearly 100% concensus on this debate, Jimbo deletes the book on an issue that wasn't even discussed here on VfD. I can nearly go as far and say that everyone here understood it fit the "textbook" catagory, else, don't you think it would have been brought up by now?


 * I'm sorry if I appear to be overreacting, but I don't think this is something that should be put up with. --Dragontamer 20:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are overreacting. This book was nonsense, and the fact that the discussion so far has centered around the frivolous discussion of "illegal vs legal", and not current wikibooks policy is a problem in it's own right, not an excuse to avoid our responsibilities. How-to guides on performing activities like this are strictly not textbooks, and they can't become textbooks. Like it or not, current policy states clearly that wikibooks hosts textbooks only, under the restriction that the subject material could be taught in an accredited institution. The fact that Jimbo is acting boldly enough to come in here and take care of our garbage because we haven't isn't something that you shouldn't get angry or indignant about. --Whiteknight (talk)(projects) 21:01, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have left a message for Jimbo on WP, regarding HOWTOs. I am happy to apply whatever standards wikimedia decide upon, but I desire explicit clarification. Kellen T 21:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I would too, if it weren't for the fact that I've been on Wikibooks for well over 8 months now. Its like someone telling you've been doing everything wrong for the past 8 months. :-/ --Dragontamer 21:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think we've been doing anything wrong necessarily, but we do have some books here that are blatant violations. I don't think that we need to assume that one or two bad apples lead to a greater truth about any entire bookshelf. There can be how-to books that don't belong here, without having to condemn the entire how-to bookshelf. "How To X", where X is anything illegal, nonsensical, or non-productive probably does not belong here. There are a number of other examples that I would like to put on the chopping block myself, but i don't mind waiting until we get the specifics ironed out in policy. --Whiteknight (talk)(projects) 21:36, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * This book had *nothing* to do with illegal stuff, any more than a manual on how to fax a document. I don't need to go through the debate again; but you can see for yourself by all the "keep" votes that almost no one thought that this book was illegal. As for nonsensical or nonproductive, I could easily argue that the Art_bookshelf is nonproductive and or nonsensical. That easily falls into the "opinion" zone of things and dont think think it should be a metric or test at all.


 * And a book that survived a VfD with support of some of the most active members of Wikibooks (Kernigh, Javariel) and a neutral from Robert Horning, also very active in this community, probably fits this place pretty well. --Dragontamer