Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/How To Build A Pykrete Bong (2)

How To Build A Pykrete Bong
As per a discussion that i had with User:Dragontamer, I am going to go through the How-tos bookshelf, and pick out the books that (i think) fundamentally don't belong on wikibooks as per policy. If I am wrong on any count, we vote to keep, no harm no foul. This one is going nowhere, is not a textbook, and deals (at least implicitly) with illegal subject matter. Now, if we had a book such as "How to build with Pykrete" or somethign similar, we could keep alot of this material, but we don't. --Whiteknight (talk)(projects) 21:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete -- Although I'm using it as an example in my argument, don't think for a second I've lost all sense. --Dragontamer 22:06, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Certainly not! but all i needed was an excuse to start labeling some of this stuff as rubbish. --Whiteknight (talk)(projects) 22:08, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I was unaware that this book survived a VfD. I'll wait out this discussion, and then make my final decision when things seem settled. Perhaps there is something I don't know... --Dragontamer 22:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Speedily deleted This isn't going to become a textbook or a part of a textbook similar to that taught in accredited learning institutions, Jguk 22:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Special Comment - What a way to treat a book that survivied a VfD earlier. What is this place coming to! While I think this is a bit edgy or definitely a borderline case for something that should or should not be on Wikibooks, indiscriminte deletion is not the way to go on something like this. Previous concensus should prevail and especially since this did survive a VfD earlier I think a full VfD discussion should prevail. I'm not going to fight Jguk here, but if there is another admin here that gives a damn, please get this book undeleted. --Rob Horning 23:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The fact that this miraculously survived a previous VfD does not mean that it's continued existence here was not a violation of policy. We as wikibooks contributers did not do our duty in the previous VfD, and this is our chance to set things right. --Whiteknight (talk)(projects) 17:43, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't doubt that the book was wrongly kept (IIRC, I was very new to Wikibooks when the earlier VfD was held). However, its surviving the VfD should earn it enough consideration not to speedily delete it.  If it should be deleted, then it should be deleted via another VfD.  Unlike Rob Horning, I don't think that a previous consensus should prevail in perpetuity (well, maybe that wasn't exactly his position).  But speedying something that was previously kept by overwhelming consensus seems overly aggressive.  --JMRyan T E C 22:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm curious about Whiteknight's objection. (1) Do you think it sufficient for deletion that How To Build A Pykrete Bong was a how-to?  I'm not sure that deleting a how-tos simply because it is a how-to is a settled matter.  Jimbo, as I understand it, wants the how-tos to go.  I'm not sure that we've agreed to have his opinion settle the matter.  Since he is the owner of the site, maybe it should settle the matter.  But whether it should settle the matter and whether it in fact has settled the matter are two different things.  This is an issue about who we are and who we want to be (both in terms of whether we want to host how-tos and what our relationship with Jimbo should be).  I doubt that such issues are going to be settled satisfactorily within individual VfD's.  (2)  Do you (Whiteknight) think it sufficient for deletion that bongs are illegal/immoral/disreputable/offensive/whatever?  I guess I think that their illegality in the US (at least I assume they're illegal) should at least usually suffice.  Supporting illegal activity does discredit Wikibooks, a bad thing.  But two considerations.  (a)  We should not generally be in the business of censoring on the basis of offensiveness.  Some things are so offensive that we should censor them in spite of not being in the business of censoring offensivenes.  Previous books on white supremacy and how to rape come to mind.  But the need to censor such over-the-top offensiveness does not imply the need to censor all offensiveness.  Perhaps almost all offensive stuff should be censored.  After all, offensive material will hurt our reputation.  But it shouldn't be automatic.  (b)  Not even censoring on the basis of illegality should be absolute and automatic.  "How to be a dissident in [name your favorite dictatorship] without getting yourself dissappeared" presumably should not be censored even though dissent is illegal in whatever dictatorship.  Even "How to commit civil disobedience" should not be censored.  (I am ignoring for the moment whether such books should be deleted for being how-tos.)  I guess I don't have a hard and fast rule here.  In genearal, most books dealing with nefarious activity are really Really REALLY bad for other reasons and I feel more comfortable deleting them for non-censorship reasons than for their nefariousness.  But that doesn't mean I wouldn't vote to censor for at least some nefariousness if I can find no other reason to delete. --JMRyan T E C 22:21, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As I've pointed out, Jimbo Wales does not own Wikibooks, even though I am grateful for him placing the initial seed capital for starting Wikipedia and other associated project. Wikibooks is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, and if there is prevailing policy about removing things like game guides and how-to books, (when was that being questioned????) and it is felt that the Wikibooks community has made improper policies, that should have been an action item by the WMF board as a whole.  I havn't seen that done in this case, but instead some individuals are using some casual remarks by Jimbo as holy writ from the divine and making policy decisions instead.  That should not be the way policy changes are made.  BTW, I'm not suggesting that we can't reverse decisions that were made in the past, but if this is going to be deleted it shouldn't be a speedy deletion but something that at least gets serious consideration, especially because it survived a VfD in the past.  The way this book is being treated is that such a discussion never happened in the first place.  --Rob Horning 10:06, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Shall we request an official statement from the board then? It seems that would be the best way to permanently settle the matter. Kellen T 11:50, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Especially since this is the description on the WM pages:
 * Wikibooks aims to build a collection of free e-book resources, including textbooks, language courses, manuals, and annotated public domain books. It aims to help both (self-)instruction of students, and teachers in high-schools and universities. The project started in July 2003 and has over 22,000 modules from 1000 developing books, across 45 languages.
 * which doesn't seem to jive with the whole "accredited institution" thing. Kellen T 12:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * And also this, in which the Whole Earth Catalog would be available in some form on WB. Nothing on the WMF pages actually uses Jimbo's "accredited institution" phrasing; in fact, it often mentions "manuals" which would seem to include many howtos that might otherwise be excluded. Kellen T 23:07, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Being on the How-To bookshelf is certainly not a reason for deletion. there are a number of other books on that shelf that definately should stay at wikibooks, and even some that I have contributed to (and some that I will contribute to in the future). I don't understand how the notion of how-to books falling on the chopping block was brought up, but that's an opinion that i fundamentally disagree with. Also, I do not deem the subject mater of this book as being particularly offensive, although it is certainly disreputable. My vote to delete this book, and my initiation of this VfD proceeding was based on a combination of current policy, and the opinions and mandates of Jimbo. People can get all sorts of uptight about Jimbo making unilaterial, sweeping decisions concerning this place, but frankly, I don't mind. Jimbo says that wikibooks should be a repository for textbooks only, an opinion that perhaps would have alienated the How-To bookshelf. However, this opinion came under fire (but not after we lost the video-game guides), and now we have the more recent proclamation that books here at wikibooks should be on material that is taught at "accredited institutions". Again, this metric has fallen under fire, but until it is overturned, by either strong community concensus or the word of Jimbo himself, then that's the measuring stick that I am prepared to use concerning VfD. I voted to delete this book because it is disreputable, it concerns material that is illegal in some parts of the world, but that isn't taught in an accredited institution anywhere in the world. I also shouldn't have to point out the fact that this could easily fall under the category of original research, and that unless you can find a previously-published work that discusses the creation of bongs from pykrete, then it isn't verifiable. I could care less about the illegality of the subject, there are plenty of jurisdictions on this planet where marijuana is sufficiently legal to allow a published work of this nature. I am also against censorship as well. However, the fact that this isn't bad for legality reasons, and the fact that I am against censoring material of a touchy-nature do not preclude me from declaring this book in violation of policy for a number of reasons. Note that I did infact change my vote to keep on the "growing medicinal and recreational marijuana" book, as a means to prove myself on this subject. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 21:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Transwiki to http://en.howto.wikia.com if it doesn't stay. GFDL-licensed, may come under the WikiMedia umbrella, and part of the Jimbo-supported (founded?) Wikia, so there should be no transwiki issues. As I mentioned earlier, one solution to consider is to split Wikibooks into separate projects for academic textbooks and general guides (including how-tos and video game guides). --✉haginძazt\c 00:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * From w:User_talk:Jimbo Wales:
 * Pykrete Bong? That one is tantamount to vandalism if you ask me and should have been promptly deleted on sight.--Jimbo Wales 17:22, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Kellen T 21:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * re-instate and clean up, probably retitle, and remove references to bongs. Dolive35 13:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make any sense. The module was about making bongs. Kellen T 15:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Most of the information is about pykrete, and could just as well be applied to making many other things. That is why i think it should be reinstated, and reworked in to somehting like How to make things with pykrete. Dolive35 09:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If you are willing to personally do the work to fix this up, i will undelete it for a day, so that you can gather the useful information from it. If you are not willing, I cannot justify undeleting this book in the hopes that somebody else might fix it, some day in the future. --Whiteknight (talk) (projects) 12:45, 17 May 2006 (UTC)