Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/Hebrew Roots

Hebrew Roots
This has extreme factual and NPOV issues. For example, Hebrew Roots/Neglected Commandments/Idolatry/Easter has an almost certainly false account of the origins of Easter. Hebrew Roots/Unclean foods/Diseases has issues with original research and NPOV. Maybe this could be moved to Wikiversity (I don't know if it would be appropriate there)? InverseHypercube (discuss • contribs) 07:50, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * While it is possible to write an NPOV textbook about religion, it is extremely difficult, and this would seem not to be one such. I don't think it can be repaired, unfortunately. Chazz (talk) 23:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The only way to build a neutral textbook on anything is to start with a fact-based worldview. This isn't, and there's no recovering from that.  --Pi zero (discuss • contribs) 00:19, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Meniktah's response - request for consideration
At present I am at a disadvantage as I am overseas without regular internet access. This book includes over 300 pages, and four years worth of work. Deleting that with two vaguely described problems is an injustice. The book contains various types of content ranging from describing common Abrahamic concepts (like Hebrew Roots/The Law and the Covenants/Covenant) and pages which are comparable to Biblical Studies/Bible Topics (see Hebrew Roots/The Law and the Covenants) which would fit, to doctrinal positions of the people within the Hebrew Roots movement (e.g. Hebrew Roots/Neglected Commandments/Sabbath) which are comparable to A Summary of Theology and Thought in Messianic Judaism. If the community doesnt like the positions of the Hebrew Roots movement, much of the material could be moved to Biblical Studies/Old Testament Commentaries and Biblical Studies/New Testament Commentaries. Many parts of this book have sources for the material, such as over 30 quotes at Hebrew Roots/Neglected Commandments/Sabbath/Statements of Historians (mostly from scholars, encyclopedias, etc), and detailed notes at Hebrew Roots/Neglected Commandments/Honouring His Name/Appendix1, including textual criticism. Regarding the page about adoption of Easter, the pagan roots from which it comes is well documented in encyclopedias, as Wikipedia also covers under Ēostre. I have attempted to present the beliefs that this Hebraic Roots movement is embracing for educational purposes. If parts of this page about Easter do not align with modern research on the history of this tradition, they can be removed or improved, prefixed with "Members of the Hebrew Roots movement believe that ..", and/or notes can be added to explain how these beliefs are not up to date with present scientific achievements, educating readers. The same applies to the page about unclean food diseases. User:Panic2k4 and I have discussed parts of that page, regarding accuracy and style, and I have happily made the desired changes. There are sources throughout the page about diseases; if they are not an accurate reflection of science, please fix them or point them out so that I can adjust them accordingly. I request more than the seven days stipulated to make the corrections sought.

Here are some pages to look at for more precise comparisons, that you might make



and

Subject:Religion

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Meniktah (discuss • contribs) 06:14, 2 January 2014


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 * Maybe the case could be made that it should be moved to Wikiversity, but I don't think it's appropriate for Wikibooks. As the other commentators have pointed out, it's essentially not a factual book. Handpicking scientific studies to support a religious view is problematic, even if the science is perfectly good. InverseHypercube (discuss • contribs) 05:19, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

If I might ask, what exactly is the policy of Wikibooks on religious works? Is this considered not an original work? Are other religious leaning texts here? Rozzychan (discuss • contribs) 02:48, 30 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @Rozzychan! As far as I'm aware, there is no specific policy on religious materials as the subject of books here. Like all wikibooks, any book on religion must be educational and fact-based, and it should not be proselytizing or otherwise biased. Hope this helps! —Kittycataclysm (discuss • contribs) 20:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Hebrew Roots
I would like to reopen the discussion for whether Hebrew Roots should be kept at Wikibooks. The decision after the last proposal for deletion was to keep it under the assumption that it would be rewritten to be educational; however, after almost a decade it remains in its entirety, even though it is essentially a proselytizing work with massive NPOV issues. I tried to rework some pages to make it more educational about the Hebrew Roots movement, but it was difficult to rework what is essentially a book of religious beliefs. To do so would be a massive undertaking that I don't think Wikibooks has enough manpower to do right now. Given these issues, I do not think it is appropriate to continue hosting it here. Would love to hear other people's thoughts—pinging active administrators @MarcGarver @SHB2000 @Leaderboard @Atcovi as well as experienced users active in recent changes @Tyoyafud @Knoppson @ManuelGR @Rozzychan @Alexlatham96 @Soul windsurfer @MathXplore @Danielravennest @Xeverything11 @PeterEasthope @Jeff1138 @L10nM4st3r. Thanks! —Kittycataclysm (discuss • contribs) 13:02, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Much of the book still comes out as proselytising to me. It's had a decade to be improved; that's more than enough time. --SHB2000 (discuss • contribs) 13:19, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I do not remember that I have been involved in such discussion. --Soul windsurfer (discuss • contribs) 13:53, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * (Question) What are the biggest NPOV issues at here ? Does it attack or harm other religions? If there is any offensive, deletion is possibly needed. Otherwise, just moving to userspace (without redirect) might be enough. --MathXplore (discuss • contribs) 14:28, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
 * My question mirrors that of MathXplore. I know little about the subject itself. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 04:19, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the last line of Hebrew Roots/The Eternal Plan of God – surely that falls under the definition of proselytising. SHB2000 (discuss • contribs) 12:30, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * How is that so? You'll need to be detailed - I don't see anything obvious. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 13:22, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, Kittycataclysm's explained it below. SHB2000 (discuss • contribs) 21:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Leaderboard @MathXplore As it stands, this book is evangelizing (preaching religious beliefs as fact) with the underlying implied goal of proselytizing (marketing their religious beliefs in order to ultimately convert people). A reasonable educational book would describe the history and beliefs of this religious movement in a neutral way separated from the movement itself; however, this book describes the history and beliefs of the movement from the perspective of a religious believer in the movement. It cites religious works and the beliefs contained therein as fact, with the goal of legitimizing and spreading these religious beliefs. While this is not necessarily a problem in a vacuum, it is incompatible with Wikibooks' mission of providing neutral educational materials without promoting personal beliefs on a soapbox. Does this help clarify the issues? —Kittycataclysm (discuss • contribs) 13:23, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Some selected representative quotes include, but are not limited to:
 * "This series is to gain an understanding of the gospel and what form it will take in the endtime as the‭ "‬gospel of the kingdom‭" ‬which is to be preached in all the world before the end of this age comes, which will herald in His kingdom upon earth."
 * "Our‭ ‬quest in this series is to gain an understanding of the endtime message‭ ‬-‭ ‬the good news of eternal life.‭"
 * "This is a last day move of God to return to the roots of the original faith and practice of the early assemblies founded by the apostles of our Lord and Saviour Yeshua the Messiah (Jesus Christ). It continues to be an ongoing process as diligent search is made is made in seeking God for revelation and understanding in what has been lost for centuries. it will culminate in a last days outpouring of His Spirit which will bring the Body of Messiah to perfection to meet Him as His spotless Bride."
 * "But who defines moral standards? Certainly we humans cannot. The answer is: God alone has the authority to define moral standards; because He created us. In other words, Yahweh's law, as recorded in the Bible, identifies the moral standards He wants humanity to live by. If His law didn't exist no one would know right from wrong."
 * "The law of Almighty God is eternal and unchanging. It is the essence of His own nature and expresses the ordained principles in which the man He created is to live and bear the likeness and image of God in which He was created."
 * "Obedience will have its fruit in righteousness! We are called to follow the Master and His example...The end purpose is that we become sanctified, set apart unto Him, meet for the Master's use!"
 * These are just a few very obvious examples, and simply deleting them would still not solve the overarching issues of the book. It was created and structured around this ideology, and the whole thing would have to be completely taken apart and rewritten (which it has not been in almost a decade) to separate out the ideology. —Kittycataclysm (discuss • contribs) 13:34, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Leaderboard@MathXplore Just checking back in—does this help clarify the problem and why I believe the book should be removed? —Kittycataclysm (discuss • contribs) 12:06, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Understood. Aiming to convert someone might become harmful to other religions at large. MathXplore (discuss • contribs) 12:09, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
 * , I'll leave this to you - if this appears to indeed push people to a certain viewpoint, there indeed is a case for removal. It's just that I can't "verify" this myself. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 12:18, 18 May 2023 (UTC)


 * It seems that there are no strong objections to this book's deletion. While consensus here is somewhat thin, I believe there is enough evidence and agreement to delete it. Unless someone raises a particular objection, I will plan to begin deletion of the book within the next couple weeks. Thanks to those who contributed their thoughts! —Kittycataclysm (discuss • contribs) 13:13, 4 June 2023 (UTC)