Wikibooks:Reading room/Proposals/2022/April

Annotate a video game???
In Annotated texts, it’s written: It may also be possible for Wikibookians to annotate other forms of narrative media besides just written texts. For instance, it may be possible to annotate a motion picture, a video game, or a musical song/album. Such cases might be permitted under this policy if they are shown to be academic and well-written. Could someone please explain how would an annotation for a video game and if it’s possible to annotate a tv/YouTube series as well? Thanks in advance, -Gifnk dlm 2020 Merry Christmas 🎄(talk) 14:05, 25 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The text is speculative and will depend on the exact circumstances. Notice that it is possible to annotate a book if and only if the book itself is copyright-free - which means that you are unlikely to find an annotated "modern" book. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 11:44, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , yeah I understand how you can annotate a book and it makes sense that it has to be copyright free, but I don’t understand how you would annotate an interactive media like video games. Wouldn’t that be like a walkthrough or a strategy guide? -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 13:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In a way yes. Notice that text was written when video games were completely banned and to me was placed only to avoid the line of thought that books are the only thing that can be annotated. I should clarify one thing - annotations to a copyright book are indeed possible (see Muggles%27_Guide_to_Harry_Potter for an example). So I can see something like this possible for a TV/YouTube series as well. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 11:52, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , yeah I have noticed this. The problem is that I don’t understand how an annonation of a video game would be written. Also I have checked out Muggles' Guide to Harry Potter/Books/Chamber of Secrets/Chapter 2. I assume an annonation of a movie/series would be formatted similarly, but I still don’t understand how one would annotate a video game, unless it was as you said just there to show that not only books can be annotated and they never actually meant to annotate a video game. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 12:40, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * There are many things that can be annotated about a game, though some games are more suited to it than others.
 * The most obvious example is a visual novel or interactive fiction, since each could theoretically be rendered as a print book (à la choose your own adventure), and are inherently similar mediums. Text based RPGs and scripted dialogue heavy RPGs do not fall far from the tree here, and have much in common with television or cinema in format and direction.
 * However there is a lot more that can be annotated then simple textual content. Another way of creating an annotated text is to write about things other then the text of the game itself. Story, Characters, Environments, Game design, etc. can all be deserving of discussion and analysis in the right context, as in any analysis of a fictional world.
 * As an example, much has been said about World 1-1 of Super Mario Bros, and how without using much text, it teaches the player how the game is played. (Effectively becoming a textbook example in many game design talks) Thus you could for example, do an academic analysis of how a game instructs the player, or other non-textual aspects.
 * Even games which are exclusively multiplayer, or even primarily spectator oriented, can be annotated, as besides gameplay, there are cultural values beyond gameplay which may be deserving of academic analysis. (Similar to how some academic analysis of theater often considers the audience just as vital to the access of the performance as the stage, script, or even actors themselves)
 * Let me know if this helps, or if you have any questions! Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 02:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , so have I got you correctly? Any game can be annotated, and the annotation will be an analysis of the plot, the characters, the game design, the cultural significance, etc. -08:19, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Certainly. The annotation can be free to focus on a specific subtopic (Eg, just the game world such as in Illustrated Guide to the world of Spira (FFX and FFX-2)) or be broader to cover multiple topics. Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 13:34, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

, I was thinking of the implications of your comment, and I wonder, would it be acceptable to annotate the YouTube series Minecraft Deep Dive which goes into the lore of Minecraft. Of course all the content in the episodes are just speculations. Every episode in the series will have a chapter in the book and each chapter will discuss the speculations of the given episode and also the theories of other people regarding the same topic. What do you think about this? -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2022 (UTC)


 * I'd be fine with that personally, but other users likely have valuable insights. I'd pitch it as an independent proposal here first before creating the book just in case. Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 21:57, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , sorry for the late reply. I will be sure to do that before creating the book. -Gifnk dlm 2020 From Middle English Wikipedia 📜📖💻 (talk) 09:49, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , after watching this video, I’m not sure about this idea. Do you think it’s a real concern? Thanks in advance, - 📜 GIFNK 📖 DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 13:53, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think I was quite understood your meaning when I left my last message. I was thinking you were proposing something of an abridged rundown of the content, along with an analysis, such that it did not replace or incorporate the whole of the original work. (Think of lecture notes, etc)
 * The video describes plagiarism and copyright infringement, not an annotated text. That said for a true annotated text (Which would by necessity, include the full original material), then it wouldn't be kosher unless the content was under a compatible license.
 * In my personal opinion if you have an educational analysis of a work (A la Muggles' Guide to Harry Potter), or can find a video series to annotate that's under a compatible license (Such that the original video would be able to be hosted on commons like those on Commons:Category:Video Game Story Time), then it's OK with me personally. However if you're serious about going forward, you should pitch it as as an independent proposal. Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 15:14, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
 * l I didn’t plan to include the original material, only a rundown of the content and comparing his theories to theories of other people. I was just worried that after such plagiarism, people might be against even rundowns. I think I will pitch an independent proposal in the coming days. - 📜 GIFNK 📖 DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 16:59, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Please make a category about Roblox
Since Roblox is not a game, but rather a collection of games, please consider making a subsection for it. --Red-back spider (discuss • contribs) 23:56, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , I’m not an admin but I’m curious to know what you mean. You can make a shelf about games check out Shelf:Electronic games by franchise. After you asking to create Shelf:Roblox? -Gifnk dlm 2020 Merry Christmas 🎄(talk) 20:51, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I want to make a category in Shelf:Strategy Guides/ called Roblox with a collection of games in Roblox. Red-back spider (discuss • contribs) 05:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , Oh now I see., what do you think about this suggestion? Now I see why you want to make it a subcategory off Shelf:Electronic games and not of Shelf:Electronic games by franchise but I’m not sure if I agree with you. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Merry Christmas 🎄(talk) 05:43, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Also those are the books that I found about Roblox: Roblox Game Development, Roblox Studio Tutorials, Roblox WF Wars. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Merry Christmas 🎄(talk) 05:53, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * An explanation on what Roblox is would be needed. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 11:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , Roblox is an online game platform and game creation system. Basically you can make games and play games other people made. However it’s different from sites like Newgrounds since all games have to made with their platform and therefore the visuals are somehow similar to each other. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Merry Christmas 🎄(talk) 13:27, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think we should regardless of Roblox, make a shelf in Shelf:Electronic games called Shelf:Electronic games by platform then we can put there strategy guides of Roblox games, but currently none exist and I don’t think it’s beneficial to create an empty shelf. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 22:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * But then would those games even meet the notability criteria? We don't just accept any game after all. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 11:47, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , tbh the answer is idk. If reviews and let’s plays on YouTube are enough for a game to be considered notable then I doubt there’s a lack of notable Roblox games. It seems as if is interested in books about Roblox games and yeah this is a very important question that must be answered. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 12:31, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I would like to add that IMO, all games mentioned in List of Roblox games are notable. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 14:07, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , do you think games listed in this Wikipedia page are notable for inclusion in Wikibooks? -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 07:18, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I would think that looks OK, as long as they are actually popular for a good reason. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 08:15, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * , Ok I see. Thank you very much!, you can create books about these games and add them to Shelf:Roblox. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 09:32, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Ok. sorry for the super late reply. I just missed the whole conversation. But thanks anyways guys! Red-back spider (discuss • contribs) 06:05, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Done! Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 22:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * As an aside, proposals about strategy guides which are not strictly about the strategy guide policy proposal itself should probably go into their own threads, so this thread stops being resurrected, and can be archived (This thread is nearly one year old).
 * This increases the visibility of other proposals, including new proposals about strategy guides. Of course, if someone wants to comment about the original strategy guide policy proposal, it should be done in this thread. Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 04:29, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , so have I got you right? Proposals for new strategy guides should be new threads and questions about this policy should in this thread? I think most of my “proposals” were questions about the policy. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 09:04, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I may have worded that poorly. I don't think your questions of policy are necessarily out of place.
 * Basically the the purpose of this thread was to discuss weather or not we should "Start allowing game strategies". Any comments on re allowing strategy guides should definitely go here. However questions related to the policy, but not specifically about re-allowing game guides, may be more visible to other wikibooks users as separate threads. Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 09:12, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , oh I see. Thank you very much! Btw, you may have missed the section above about creating Shelf:Grand Theft Auto. -Gifnk dlm 2020 Happy New Year 🎄❄️⛄️🎇 (talk) 09:30, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Shelf:Grand Theft Auto Done! Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 02:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Do other langages allow strategy guides?
Hi, I’m curious to know, are there any other wikibooks communities other than English that allow game strategies as a result of the success here? The last update I got was from August 2021, that Chinese Wikibooks declined allowing. I checked just now with Hebrew Wikibooks, and they don’t have any such books though I can suggest them to start allowing. About other languages, idk. I’m posting this comment here because I think it’s the most relevant place since this is where we approved game strategies in English Wikibooks, and this is a question about game strategies in other languages. - 📜 GIFNK 📖 DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 20:07, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * fr.wikibooks do, see fr:Wikilivres:Étagère jeu vidéo. Not to sure about other Wikibooks languages really. -- Jules (Mrjulesd) 21:08, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't suggest any policy changes on Wikis you don't actively edit for reasons outlined later in this post.
 * I took a short tour of some other editions of Wikibooks. The following languages either de facto or de jure allow video game strategy guides as of February 7th, 2022. This list is not comprehensive, and is based on either the existence of strategy guides on the wiki or the presence of a category for them.
 * French Wikibooks - As mentioned by Jules.
 * Italian Wikibooks
 * Korean Wikibooks
 * Russian Wikibooks
 * Indonesian Wikibooks
 * Portuguese Wikibooks
 * Finnish Wikibooks
 * Hungarian Wikibooks
 * Swedish Wikibooks
 * Esperanto Wikibooks - Has a category for them but no actual strategy guides at the moment.
 * I should note that I don't think all languages have a policy relating to strategy guides. That is to say they are neither explicitly allowed, nor explicitly prohibited. There may be more subtle unwritten rules which I have missed in my cursory expedition.
 * I believe it is generally up to each language to determine what content they allow, unless such content is blatantly against broad Wikimedia movement goals as a community or Wikimedia Foundation legal requirements. I should note that Multilingual Wikis, such as Commons and Wikidata, tend to have more unified policies.
 * Personally, I believe it is best that strategy guides originate organically from a local editing base, because that creates a long term community to maintain and grow the project as a whole (Both in terms of strategy guides and more broadly). Another factor to consider is that different cultures have different views and laws regarding video games, and their inclusion or exclusion could affect the rest of their project in terms of readership and public perception. Thus, if a language of Wikibooks doesn't think strategy guides are in the best interest of their readers and editors, I think that should be generally respected. Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 07:02, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 * , thank you very much for the updates! Considering the success in English Wikibooks, hopefully even more communities follow the example, but I agree that it will be best if it comes from active users so I don’t think I will suggest this in Hebrew Wikibooks. - 📜 GIFNK 📖 DLM💻MMXX🏰 (TALK🎙 | CONTRIBS) 12:27, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Slight clarification to notability
I suggest to write in Strategy guides, that if a game has an page I wikipedia or a section of a page in Wikipedia dedicated to it then it is notable for sure. From my understanding this is what is going on anyways, but it should still be written so that it will be clear for beginners. -Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 (discuss • contribs) 12:45, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Well I suppose we could add something along the lines of "games which pass the notability requirements of Wikipedia should be acceptable". I don't think it's particularly needed though, as is already allows games listed on Metacritic and Opencritic, or "Inclusion of games in other prominent review sites may also indicate significance", so is likely to be roughly the same as the Wikipedia notability or slightly laxer, already. -- Jules (Mrjulesd) 20:34, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * @Mrjulesd Also, I noticed that the opener of this sub-section Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123 is registered by Gifnk dlm 2020 per incubator:Talk:Wp/enm/Mayne_Page, I need to know that whether this is a legitimate clean starting as it requires no return to topic areas, disputes, editing patterns, or behaviors previously identified as problematic, and no attempts to evade scrutiny are allowed. Or, should I request a Checkuser regarding their relations? Liuxinyu970226 (discuss • contribs) 04:51, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't see anything particularly problematic with this. At the "User:Slava Ukraini Heroyam Slava 123" page it declares "Formerly edited as User:Gifnk dlm 2020" so presumably that account has been abandoned in faour of the new one, and it is openly declared. So it doesn't seem like it evades scrutiny, and they are under no restrictions here that it would affect. -- Jules (Mrjulesd) 09:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)