Wikibooks:Reading room/Archives/2012/February

Unsigned posts
Can't the template be made as default (if the exact date is not provided), to add a time stamp "before " (time being the actual time of the insertion of the template and link it to the page edit history (if possible showing the edits before that date) ?  Or some other useful variation of this...  --Panic (discuss • contribs) 10:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Does do what you want? --dark  lama  23:05, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It adds the time of the addition of the template as a default, an improvement. But it would benefit by the clear statement that it was "before " (and then there wouldn't be any reason to object making it the default behavior for ). There still is no link to the local page edit history for inquiring minds to easily verify the exact time by themselves (especially if it could be made to show the edits before that time, using the offset= ?), that would be a useful to get it all in the same place. --Panic (discuss • contribs) 00:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Just because I was thinking about it I will post here some comments on the templates...
 * Why the use of the word "comment", some posts are not comments (in fact most unsigned posts are initiators of threads). The world "post" would be more generic and to the point (and take less space). Post = A message posted in an electronic forum.
 * I also do not see any use for the (and variation) because it is prone to hide valid information, since anonymous users can create user pages. It is not at all intuitive as it alters the normal behavior of the signature parts. It seems a good target for a RfD (Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:UnsignedIP and Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:UnsignedIP2)...  --Panic (discuss • contribs) 00:29, 5 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Timestamp now links to the offset in history, and preceded by "before" when the default is used. I wonder whether the offset in history depends on a user's timezone though, because if so that would make the link unreliable.
 * I agree there is no need for unsignedIP and unsignedIP2. I think unsigned3 can also replace unsigned and unsigned2, because the order of arguments is interchangeable.
 * "add comment" was the link/tab name used to add a new section or to "initiate a new thread" at one time. Maybe that is why the word "comment" is used.
 * --dark lama  00:50, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I never spent any cycles understanding how time is worked on Wikimedia until now (UTC is good for me). But just for synchronization and general information of others reading this.
 * The opportunity for confusion is the click generated page by the provided link to the edit history.
 * All the talk pages use UTC (universal time zone, the system default) the preferences "Date and time" setting only affects the dynamically generated active logs, this includes a page edit history, and so a different timezone can indeed be an issue, since the offset will use the clicking user's preferences, the biggest possible difference is 23 hours, one could maybe shift the link to show the previous activity of time+23, if there is no easier way to check if the user timezone or force the link to generate a UTC version of it (in not already possible, this could be an improvement to the Wikimedia software in general). --Panic (discuss • contribs) 01:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I will let you know right now that I would oppose the removal of the unsigned IP templates. IP users ordinarily will not be creating user pages and the standard links in recent changes and on a page's history will not link to the IP user's page.  So in the same vein an unsigned template should not either.  And of course you won't see any uses of them because they are substituted. Conversely, I find unsigned3 to be unnecessary.  I want to know the time a comment was actually added, not the time someone noted a comment was missing a signature. – Adrignola discuss 13:49, 6 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No one is proposing "the removal of the unsigned IP templates". The core of the request was for a change on the default behavior to include the template use date (in place of nothing at all) and then we talked about talking about reducing the duplicated templates, the others, not the main one, since most if not all don't have active uses.
 * The reason why the extension I requested and Darklama implemented was just to address "I want to know the time a comment was actually added", since that is not possible to establish (I think) the only other option was what Darklama implemented (could it get the date of the previous edit ?) with the universal time limitation discussed (that can be properly addressed but as a extra functionality even if limited may be useful).
 * As for the account display functional links what I was proposing was to fallow the normal convention and stop hiding if the IP has or not a user page, the contributions will still be displayed and the link properly labeled as it is for the signed user. --Panic (discuss • contribs) 14:27, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

The Open Textbook Challenge
http://www.saylor.org/otc/ Not sure if you are aware of this. Are there Interesting materials to import here? Possible Wikibook users to participate in the next chllange? Regards. Emijrp (discuss • contribs) 16:09, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I have also noticed the announcement of winners of the Wave I of the Open Textbook Challenge. One question that I have not seen answered is what happened to losing projects ?
 * The winners have been:
 * Elementary Linear Algebra by Dr. Kenneth Kuttler of Brigham Young University – MA211 Linear Algebra I
 * Linear Algebra, Theory and Applications by Dr. Kenneth Kuttler of Brigham Young University – MA212 Linear Algebra II
 * Computer Networking: Principles, Protocol, and Practice by Dr. Olivier Bonaventure of the Université catholique de Louvain in Belgium - CS402 Local Area Networks
 * Real Analysis I by Dr. Elias Zakon of the University of Windsor – MA241 Real Analysis I
 * Since they are compatible with our license, the material can be freely used (requiring attribution to the original work and authors), as for the reverse it is possible but the issue is matching their specific courses program... --Panic (discuss • contribs) 18:33, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

MediaWiki 1.19
(Apologies if this message isn't in your language.) The Wikimedia Foundation is planning to upgrade MediaWiki (the software powering this wiki) to its latest version this month. You can help to test it before it is enabled, to avoid disruption and breakage. More information is available in the full announcement. Thank you for your understanding.

Guillaume Paumier, via the Global message delivery system (wrong page? You can fix it.). 14:56, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Artificial Intelligence for Sustainability
I am new to Wikibooks and was directed here by an email to introduce myself -- I'm a computer science faculty member and I just initiated a Wikibook 'Artificial Intelligence for Sustainability: A Lab Companion" -- that is, a text of sustainability-relevant problems and projects that can accompany any AI text book. AIProf (discuss • contribs) 14:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Welcome. Your book looks very interesting. There are some other books on artificial intelligence here that you might want to look at, see Subject:Artificial intelligence. If you need any help on how to structure a book here, on Wikitext or anything else then do ask. Happy wikibooking! QU TalkQu 16:03, 17 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you! I found and cited the Artificial Intelligence text you speak of; in fact, an original question I was going to post was whether there was a particular convention for citing a Wikibook. I found an answer though AIProf (discuss • contribs) 17:30, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

3D Blender & Cisco Networker
I'm here because a link directed me here to introduce myself.


 * I'm a Blender 3D expert and has rendered some few images and animations though. I'm part of the team working on the Blender Pro Book on wikibooks. I'm really loving it and I'm helping improving it.


 * I also do much computer networking. I'm good in that and will be willing to support any networking related books on wikibooks.

Wikibooks is really a nice place to be. Its about time I give back what i took some years back.

Thank you

--Nkansahrexford (discuss • contribs) 20:49, 22 February 2012 (UTC)Nkansahrexford

The need for interactive diagrams
Hi there again,

I maintain the A-Level Computing wikibooks and have made hundreds of diagrams so far to accompany it. One of the major annoyances is that I can't use interactive SVGs as the wikicommons server exports images in png format. This means I have to make 5 copies of the same image showing different steps. I know there is a small security risk with embedded javascript in SVG, but do you know if there are any plans to get this in there. With the recent apple epub3 announcement it seems odd that we are still creating static books.

Thanks Pluke (discuss • contribs) 11:06, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * You can still use animated GIFs. AFAIK embedded javascript in SVGs will never be supported, even were conversion to PNG format stopped. Supposedly support for a programming language is in the works though. I have no idea what kinds of features that support will and will not allow though. --dark lama  23:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Rejecting Revisions
Has this stopped working for anyone else? I either get forwarded to the "submit" URL but the page doesn't load with the rejection confirmation, or I get a 403 error. QU TalkQu 18:11, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Same problem here. Quite annoying and I thought that maybe it was due to recent changes which weren't compatible with Opera.  I also seem to have lost some common buttons which I had before for welcoming users.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 15:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not working on Firefox or IE so I don't think it is browser specific. I can't get Twinkle to work at all. Guess I'd better work out how to report a bug! QU TalkQu 15:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Bug filed QU TalkQu 15:28, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe it's not part of Twinkle but the 'warn' user thing is working yet others like 'welcome' user aren't visible.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 15:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Bug found and reported as fixed r111950 QU TalkQu 21:06, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed Reject Changes is now working. Other Twinkle features like Welcome user aren't.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 23:29, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * That's probably a Javascript problem. Whatever it is, the problem would need to go to the Twinkle developers rather than the MediaWiki developers I suspect. I'll see if I can find anything out. This bug and the update required to Mediawiki:Gadgets-definition at WP may point to a change being needed here. Sadly I don't know enough about Javascript to work it out! <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 22:31, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Meant to post about an hour ago saying that it was all working again. I can welcome, warn and do whatever I like to users once again.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 23:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Problems about using Subject namespace
Hi, I see 'Subject' feature on Wikibooks English is great and I would like to use it on Wikibooks Vietnam. However, I am currently having some problems. While page Subject:Sách theo chủ đề (which is Subject:Books by subjects in English) appears quite well, other subject pages like Subject:Toán học (in English, Subject:Mathematics) doesn't show anything at all. Is there anything wrong with our Template:Root subject? Thank you. AmieKim (discuss • contribs) 13:51, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * One thing I notice is that in <tt>Root subject/core</tt> there are some values that haven't been localized to the namespace name on your wiki. That may or may not be the main problem, but it wouldn't hurt to check that all the values are appropriate for your wiki. – Adrignola discuss 16:05, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Another problem is the pages are actually in the main namespace because Vietnam Wikibooks has no namespaces beyond mediawiki's default. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  18:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much. We're choosing a Vietnamese name for namespace Subject and going to post a bug to Bugzilla AmieKim (discuss • contribs) 12:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

New User Contributions
The link on Recent Changes is Special:Contributions/newbies. Not sure if that's the same as it's always been however the link produces no results which is obviously not right. It would seem that the link is looking for edits made by a user called Newbies rather than those by new users. How'd this happen?--ЗAНИA talk 22:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It works on every other project I've tried (en.wp, en.wn, de.wb)... very very odd <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 23:12, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It is broken on meta, same as here. Must be a bug <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 23:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Reported as 34659 at Bugzilla. <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 23:27, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Nice. It was deliberate. This means that any interfaces linking to special pages with "/" switches will need to be updated. In this case the "&contribs" parameter needs to be passed in with the full URL. Other special pages are similarly impacted (e.g., listusers). I've fixed recent changes but will have to search the interface for any other instances. If you find any please let me know if you don't want to fix yourself - thanks<font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 23:36, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The links using Special:ListUsers from the various pages linked from user groups still seem to work, as well as various Special:PrefixIndex. Certainly if you go to those and specify the same values as what has been passed following a slash, it produces the same type of URL with parameters embedded.  So it seems to me that this is likely an isolated situation (unless you know something more beyond what was stated in the bug's comments). – Adrignola discuss 03:35, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Newbies is a registered account name. My guess is the old behavior kept people from being able to view their contribution history on projects where they have contributed. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  04:21, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There was some feedback from a sysop on Meta that this impacted Special:Listusers too. I would expect that if darklama's explanation is right (and it sounds like it might be) as this would suffer from the same issue as Special:Contributions for the account named Newbies <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 08:35, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help and reporting of the bug QU.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 17:45, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. There's a note on the bug now commenting that the change should have been better communicated in advance. As it happens the impact is trivial in the sense that only a couple of pages need updating but extensive in that it impacts all 500+ projects. Every upgrade has these bumps. I did try and look at 1.19 on the lab during testing but it wasn't configured for WB and it ended up being too much like hard work. <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 18:04, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Screen shots
I am coordinating the editing of the Chemical Information Sources Wikibooks by a group of experienced academic chemical librarians. Though we plan to minimize use of screen shots (prefering to point to vendor videos/webinars where appropriate), we have some questions:

1) What type of permission should we get from the vendors, or do we just consider a small number of low res screen shots fair use?

2) Should screen shots be uploaded to the Wikimedia Commons or only to the English Wikibooks. The Help: Files: Uploading Files page http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Help:Files combined with the Wikibooks: Media page is not completely clear to me.  Are screen shots "fair use" and therefore use the non-free use rationale template and go to English Wikibooks?

A. Ben Wagner, University at Buffalo Abenwagner (discuss • contribs) 16:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The best source of information on free licensing can be found at Commons, here. If you read the details on acceptable licenses and common licenses at the beginning then the rest is probably superfluous as it covers specific country-by-country laws. Most free licenses are acceptable but the most commonly used is the Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike license. One important point to note is that we do not accept "non commercial" use licenses. All uploads at Wikibooks are automatically directed to Commons which only hosts free media. If you need to use fair use media it needs to be uploaded at Wikibooks and that requires special permissions. These permissions are usually granted following a request at WB:RFP if the community is satisfied of the need for fair use materials and that the requester understands the requirements around its use. <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 20:56, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

How to deal with the How Tos....
We have a lot of one chapter / one page books here. Things like these:


 * How to Reform Multi-national Corporations
 * How to Recover Pictures from SD Card?
 * How to Write a Compiler
 * How to Wheelie

and some multi chapter books (like How To Beat The Draft Board, How to Live in Britain, How to Drive in California, USA) that are very short.

I'd like to propose a bold reorganisation of this work into subject based How To books. For example, all of the "how to" mini books that relate to Subject:Computer programming could be merged into a single Computer Programming How To book. I think this would encourage new contributors to add chapters to these larger books in the same way that we get people adding another recipe to the Cookbook. I also think by providing a framework and style guide for these books we create a more valuable resource. I'm happy to set about this myself but I'd welcome views on whether it is or isn't a good idea and (assuming you see it as a good idea!) some collaboration on the structure, etc., of the possible books. Thanks in advance <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 13:58, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the small/mini books could be merged into subject books that already exist in some cases, Computer Programming for example. I think books like Puzzles and Card Games might also be good examples to follow for any efforts to reorganize and encourage new contributions. Some books might need to go as being too narrowly focused, I doubt any school is going to offer a Degree in Wheelies any time soon. I think the scope of some books could be broaden to encourage contributions, like How to Drive and Living. I think some books could be narrowed to encourage more focused contributions, like United States Military Service. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  15:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I doubt any school is going to offer a Degree in Wheelies from Klingon to Wheelies seems a small step, so you never know <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 15:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)