Wikibooks:Reading room/Archives/2010/July

External Link Piper bot
Is there a bot that can pipe external links? All the external links in Messier Index need to be piped. There are around 1500 of them across ~100 pages! Arlen22 (talk) 19:57, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

You'll need to clarify. Normally you use pipes for internal links and don't use them for external links. – Adrignola talk 20:12, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Note that wikibooks aspire to be self-contained. Pages transwikied from Wikipedia should mostly be dewikified, delinking them (which, BTW, is a lot easier than piping). --Pi zero (talk) 21:45, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * As you are speaking in general term. I state my objection to this view, the level of links should be reduced and I agree to the aspiration to be self-contained but dewikified pages, lose lots of useful and relevant information. Automation dewikified, delinking upon request is fine but should not be assumed as a default. --Panic (talk) 23:48, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, it is easier to have a bot pipe them all, then to manually delink them. We can't just take out all external links, some are needed. It would be helpful to have the external links. Like I said, there are about 1500 links across about 100 pages. Arlen22 (talk) 23:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

On second thought, we could rewrite the whole thing. That would make it much better and get it featured status probably. Arlen22 (talk) 23:38, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Improv Acting
Can we try and open up the section on games i only know so many and would love to spread my knowledge of Improv
 * What is Improv, and what exactly do you want to do about that? We do have coverage of games like chess, but if a book is used solely for gaming, or solely for tips on solving a video game etc, it will not be accepted. In any case consider opening an account first; it makes life easier. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Splitting of pages
Could someone help me with splitting two pages? I'm asking because I assume that splitting a page requires to copy the edit history and discussions to the new pages. Specifically, I would like to split the page German/Level_I/Wie_hei%C3%9Ft_du%3F into German/Level_I/Wie_hei%C3%9Ft_du%3F_(1._Teil), German/Level_I/Wie_hei%C3%9Ft_du%3F_(2._Teil) and German/Level_I/Bitte_buchstabieren_Sie. Also, I would like to move parts of German/Level_I/Freizeit to a new page German/Level_I/Zeit. Thanks! --Martin Kraus (talk) 07:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware it is not possible to copy edit histories. They may be merged or specific items may be removed, but there isn't a way to say duplicated pages and their edit histories (unless, of course, you have transwiki privledges at two wiki's.)  But under the current license you free to copy material from one page to another and place and simply place a link to the original page where the edit history may be found.  This may even be done simply thought the edit summary by saying something like "Copying material from German/Level_I/Wie_hei%C3%9Ft_du%3F". Thenub314 (talk) 08:59, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, OK. At de.wikibooks.org they handle things a bit differently. (They argue that a link is insufficient because the linked page might be deleted at some point.) I looked into the German Wikibooks help, which suggests to use Duesentrieb's Contributers Tool to generate  edit histories and/or a list of authors. I also checked en.wikipedia.org and they suggest to use certain template to avoid that the original page and page history are deleted . But these templates are not available on en.wikibooks.org. Thus, I'll just link to the original page, include a list of authors, and leave some comments in the edit summaries of all pages. Thanks! --Martin Kraus (talk) 11:30, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not that hard to bring in a template. I've brought in Template:Copied for you to make this easier.  Personally, if I split a page, I just link to the permanent link for the page I'm splitting from.  This is usually within a book and from the root page, so if the root page is deleted, the subpage is going to be deleted too.  Thus the original history will always exist as long as the subpage exists.  Of course, if the book's subpages are merged with another book and the root is deleted, it's a problem.  Thus, when merging books, the edit histories of the root pages need to be merged as well. But, this is between subpages, so you've got the template now. – Adrignola talk 14:00, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikijunior:Particles
I'm halfway through completing this book and I want comments and feedback from the community, especially since reader feedback is still under discussion. I want this to serve as a 'midway review' so that I can correct mistakes in the first half and be pointed at the right direction in the second. Any criticism made about the book will be greatly appreciated. Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I have made a few comments, but as I am not familiar with the first form physics curriculum I have a tendency to indroduce issues beyond the scope of the book. Generally I think the book is very promising, with a fresh, engaging style so I would encourage anyone with a knowledge of school physics to have a look at it. It would be a pity to undermine the author's confidence in their their own abilities or their teacher just because they only had feedback from one grumpy old codger! Recent Runes (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Can’t Upload A Screenshot
Hi.

I’ve signed in with my username, and successfully done some textual edits. But when I try to upload a screenshot so I can use it on a page, the upload-file link takes me to a different domain, commons.wikimedia.org, that doesn’t recognize my username. Yet when I try to create the account again on that domain, it says it’s “too similar” to an existing account. What do I do?

I have previously registered this same username at wikipedia.org, and I can successfully log in there.

Ldo (talk) 12:06, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please ask this question at Wikimedia Commons, here. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:36, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know much about how the sites determine that a login name is too similar, but you could try merge your accounts at Special:MergeAccount. I suspect this should work provided someone doesn't have exactly the same account as you at one of the other wiki's.  But I wouldn't count on it working. Thenub314 (talk) 14:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC)


 * An account was already registered at Wikipedia and the account is not part of the unified login system. – Adrignola talk 15:06, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to all those who offered help. I went through the account-merging page, but it found another account at vi.wikipedia.org that didn’t seem to be one of mine, and so it said the merging process was “incomplete”. However, I can now login to commons.wikimedia.org, and I was able to upload my screenshot and link to it from the wikibooks page. So all fine now.

Ldo (talk) 03:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Reading room refactor
The barely-used "feature requests" reading room I renamed to "proposals" to broaden its scope. I've moved several threads on this page to there. This room is then free to be used for miscellaneous discussions that won't be overwhelmed with the drawn-out discussions that accompany proposals. Please ensure that the proposals reading room is on your watchlists. – Adrignola talk 18:15, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with this. I think the general reading room should house all the important proposals that have project-wide impacts. The feature requests section, since it's mostly about MediaWiki stuff as I understand it, should stay as it is, like the technical village pump etc. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 01:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with it either. It is a major organizational change that should have been raised as an issue before the community beforehand; and even if consensus were then achieved to change things, which is by no means certain, I don't think this is what consensus would settle on.  --Pi zero (talk) 02:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That scope is too narrow. The feature requests page was going unused (without archiving working we had a topic from January 2009 still on it) and nobody here is a MediaWiki developer to properly respond to requests, which, if not specific to Wikibooks in the form of a proposal, need to be filed at Bugzilla directly anyway.  Wikipedia and Wikinews have pages for proposals.  And Wikipedia and Wikinews even have an additional room for policy discussions. We've got an additional room in the form of the general assistance page over the administrative and technical assistance pages you'd see at other projects.  That's why people are using it as a help desk because it's not clear what differentiates it. The general reading room can be for miscellaneous topics.  It could even be called that like at other projects if it weren't for so many links to it.  Take a look at Wikinews and how they break their rooms down. And I should note that the rooms are more like discussion rooms rather than reading rooms. – Adrignola talk 02:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Kayau, announcements in the general discussion area would still be necessary as to validate any proposal (per different policies and the general Decision making guideline), so in that regard we are covered ( note that the guideline needs some updating done). As for the "The feature requests section" I never read much of what goes there and the two or three times I made a post there it was ignored, so in general to me it wouldn't be a loss, but I would support you as to keep it going. --Panic (talk) 05:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Adrigonla &mdash; do you recognize that you should not have taken this action unilaterally, regardless of whether you are able to obtain retroactive approval of it? (Retroactive approval is thus far not forthcoming, but I'm trying to find out whether you realize that that's not why you shouldn't have done it.)  --Pi zero (talk) 03:06, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I had good intentions and to me it was a simple broadening of the scope of an existing room and not a "major organizational change". Apparently I underestimated the resistance to change and had I not, I would have proposed it first.  Had I thought to introduce a new room or even delete one, I definitely would have done so. Nothing I've done can't be undone and the threads in the other room have had no additional replies at this point and can be moved back here if it's so desired. – Adrignola talk 03:29, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems very strange that Wikibooks would have a separate discussion room for whatever possible "Feature requests" might require a discussion, but not a separate room for proposals. --Yair rand (talk) 03:53, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * We do have an issue about the visibility of (some) proposals (even when occurring on the general discussion area), the inconsistency on how they are presented and the format that sometimes promotes division, a centralized location isn't probably a bad idea we already have a similar sort of place for policies and guidelines at Policies and guidelines/Vote (probably needs a rename).
 * I understand that most people like in real life don't particularly care about the political process unless it directly affects them, but having some extra ground rules an a dedicated space doesn't seem objectionable to me, if we want more participation and better understanding of the topics under discussion. Sometime even the mere quantity of posts will turn a page unusable and the topic incomprehensible. --Panic (talk) 04:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Three comments:
 * RR/G was getting very cluttered, the page was taking ages to load sometimes and trying to respond to a comment mid-thread was also a pain. That last part isn't helped by this but might be by #3 below.
 * The new page isn't listed on Discussion index, if it was then this wouldn't be as much of a problem. I think that page is bot-maintained so contacting whoever runs the bot is in order. I think the discussion index also needs to be made much more visible, I use it frequently because it makes multiple discussions on one page MUCH easier to follow than looking through RC or page histories. The page also isn't getting picked up by the IRC bot, not sure who maintains that either.
 * Some of these larger proposals should probably get their own page anyway, although keeping the discussion index up with new subpages might be difficult. Perhaps (and this is venturing onto "Proposal" territory) a special category could be created and the bot would update the index from pages in that category. Once some of the longer discussions are subpaged they could also be sectioned (although not really anything preventing subsections from being used either) for easier following/navigation.
 * Overall I'm in support but (along with the unilateral "resolution" of a recent RfD) it seems that people are trying to jump the gun and subvert the discussion process more and more often. (See my comment there on there being such a thing as "too bold".) Xerol Oplan (talk) 05:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That last bit was unnecessary, I was going to leave this on your talk page but since you are concerned about the formalisms, and me being extremely direct as I'm and taking exception on this last analysis you now promote on the events of the RfD, especially since you make the implication that it was a circumvention of the due process.
 * The act I made was well covered under the guidelines of a BeBold action you and Pi zero where given the chance and information required to object to my action, nothing was in secret or in collusion with others and I take full responsibility for it alone. More, I was free to execute the pending merge as you when putting it for VfD didn't object or removed the merge requests from the pages by acting as I did I respected all formalisms required and the action was valid, I can't predict the future so any escalation of the subject is uncalled-for and unprovoked but you by your own words above, presume bad faith. Hope that I made it now all clear and the subject can now be closed, if this drags on I will request community validation for my action, that was not unique nor innovative. --Panic (talk) 05:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you look at my comment on my own talk page I essentially agreed with the outcome, but the way it was carried out seemed, to me, a little bit short of reckless. As is the case here. I know a lot of things have been getting bogged down in discussion for ages so maybe we just need people to be "too bold" a couple of times just to get things done. In the case of the RfD the main part I objected to was the removal of the listing from the RfD page, because at that point in time (after the merge/delete) there wasn't any place for further discussion to occur, and it ended up on my talk page. If someone had gone to the RfD page in the brief period when it was removed and didn't look at the history, they wouldn't even have known there was potential discussion to be had. Thankfully it's a wiki and nearly everything is reversible, so no harm done, no bad feelings, and I was assuming good faith all along. Xerol Oplan (talk) 05:48, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually it seems that the discussion indices are already maintainable by the community, and the Proposals page was added to the index yesterday. That takes care of any technical issues with #2 above. Also noticed that Reading room/Bulletin Board hasn't been updated since May so that should be brought up-to-date as well. Xerol Oplan (talk) 05:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Adrignola - I had no doubt of your good intentions. I think it's major because it seems to me to be moving a hefty part of the most active reading room.

I agree that the old Feature requests room was rather useless, and that the old General room was so big that things would get lost in it.

The comparison with Wikinews can be tricky; for example we have three [edit: four?] "assistance" rooms to their one, but our Administrative assistance room corresponds to a page there that isn't called a water cooler at all; and we have non-reading-room pages similar to various water coolers or parts of water coolers, except that we tend to do almost all our discussing in the reading rooms anyway. Having more reading rooms than water coolers, and making most of our pages of this sort reading rooms rather than calling them something else, may make sense for our circumstances.

It seems to me that in practice the old General reading room combined roughly the functions of three of Wikinews's water coolers: Policy ("to discuss existing and proposed policies"), Proposals ("to discuss new ideas and proposals that are not policy related"), and Miscellaneous ("discussions and questions which don't fit elsewhere"). Should we split the old General room into three along similar lines? We'd probably want to use a different phrase to describe Miscellaneous, because with our larger number of rooms it's a bit tough to figure out what doesn't fit anywhere else, but it's possible we might still want to call it Miscellaneous. --Pi zero (talk) 05:49, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * For what it is worth (and I am already breaking a resolution to keep out of reading room discussions) I am have no strong feelings about the change, and I suppose I mildly support. I am of the opinion that we are coming off of a low point in editors willing to take part in these kind of discussions.  Just a few weeks ago it seems that no one was even interesting in commenting on DDC and LOC classifications, which are also were a pretty major part of life here.
 * My point is that during such times the only way things get done is if someone (often Adrignola) steps forward and does it. I think everyone agrees in hind sight discussion might have been a good idea.  But I don't think Adrignola should be blamed for not recognizing this a head of time. Probably a few months ago no one would have batted an eye, and he is just used to operating in that environment.  For what it is worth I don't like either the wikipedia scheme (mentioned by Kayau elsewhere) or the wikinews scheme.  I think, if anything, Projects could be merged into this room leaving us with "General", "Proposals", and "Featured Books".  Thenub314 (talk) 10:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that now that proposals has left, projects should be moved here. It would simplify things. Otherwise, I think we should let this ripen before we start splitting and splitting and splitting. Arlen22 (talk) 12:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh drat. It looks like now nobody agrees with me, but I like to keep things the way they were. I don't think inactivity poses a problem so long as there are sufficient watchers. But since so many editors agree that there should be a change in reading rooms, I'm not opposing. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the name change is fine, but should of been discussed first. "Feature requests" may of been a source of confusion with the introduction of "featured books" awhile back. I believe the intent was to discuss changes that would need to submitted to bugzilla if there was consensus, changes that could be done locally like adding or removing gadgets, and changes which might require new extensions and getting approval to use them. --dark lama  15:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Error
I think I have found a minor error in the answer to exercise 1, question 1, in symbolic logic. The answer to this should surely conclude with: (f) is a proposition. As new user, I am unsure of the proper procedure to follow. Would someone care to assist me?Cliffls (talk) 17:10, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, we suggest you be bold and change the book. :) Thenub314 (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Donating Books
Hello!.

I have been invited to seek help from other Wikibook users. The object is to donate one of my books called Irish Clan History - to see how I get on. Thereafter, to offer up others - to be able to contribute in a reasonably competant manner. At the moment they are displayed, narrated, and offered in .

Please may I call on your help to get started?

Thank you.

Terence Kearey. July 14, 2010.Terence Kearey (talk) 10:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've taken a look at the site and it seems to be already published works (1935-), if so and they are out of copyright or you own it, they are good for Wikisource, if they haven't been published and you don't mind opening them for others to contribute then see if they fit here (see What is Wikibooks), in particular that they have an educational nature. Thank you for donating your works. --Panic (talk) 11:57, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The content appears to be educational and the year reference above is not the date of publication, but rather the time period covered for some of the books. They are not in the public domain and are copyrighted. – Adrignola talk 12:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Because your books are copyrighted, if you create any books here for donated material, you'll want to add OTRS pending to the top of the book's main page and then follow the instructions that will be shown on the resulting notice to confirm that the books are yours and that you give permission to place them under the license that Wikiboooks operates. You can use a letter similar to that shown at Wikipedia:Declaration of consent for all enquiries and the email to forward that to is at the bottom of that page. I believe that Wikibooks would be the appropriate location for your book. – Adrignola talk 12:19, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Can someone...?
Can someone create a PDF version of ActionScript Programming? I'd like to download a pdf version to read offline. Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Licences
I've replaced the licences of the images for ActionScript Programming with either fair use or copyright ineligibility, leaving only two ccs alone because the user really made those two himself. (Now I have a taste of what Adrignola feels when he does maintenance work.) Let me know if I made a mistake. Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:45, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

General Template cleanup
With the above templates on SoftwareVersions coming along I've had to do a fair bit of poking around to find some information on templates, and also stumbled upon some templates in rather poor shape. Once SoftwareVersions is done I'm going to get started on cleaning up some of the other templates. To facilitate this, I've created AttentionTemplate and AttentionTemplateDoc for templates in need of technical or documentation help respectively. If you see templates that might need some syntax edited (without breaking existing usage, of course) use AttentionTemplate. If a template is lacking in documentation, use AttentionTemplateDoc. A good documentation can go a long way towards getting certain templates into more common usage.

To get some discussion flowing, I think the first thing that needs work is Help:Templates and Help:Templates Overview - A merge notice is up on the latter, and there's also Help:Advanced templates which seems to be a small subset of mw:Help:Magic words (and I think we should simply link to that, perhaps providing a few local examples, from the main Help:Templates page). A VfD and merge request went on in December 2008 so I think it's about time for something to be done. Honestly I think a good portion of Help:Templates Overview can just be axed and what little's left can just be folded into Help:Templates, which itself can be upgraded significantly. Or perhaps a refactor is in order: Help:Templates might cover creating and editing of templates while Templates covers using them. Templates should probably get a more visible link somewhere, I'd really like to fit it into Maintenance somewhere as Community Portal just has a very tiny link in the "Help" section (and note it's a link to the Wikibooks: page, not the Help: page).

Perhaps Maintenance could get a "Tools" section including links to things like deletion policy, templates, Rf_ pages, and so on. I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here but trying to improve one thing just highlights the bad bits in everything else. Xerol Oplan (talk) 15:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * My own personal long-term planning includes trying to refactor, clean up, and update pages in the help namespace. I've brought in documentation for many templates that didn't have them so far and switched many fully-protected templates to use the /doc format to avoid protected edit requests for interwikis.  Your reference above to Help versus Wikibooks namespaces is exactly how it should be.  I've not been entirely happy about the community portal either, but that does link to the policies and Rf_ pages.  Adding those to Maintenance will introduce redundancy. Both pages and Help:Contents are linked from the side navigation already as well. Finally, I'd ask what templates stood out.  I have to say that templates for tagging templates may result in people applying them and not "noinclude"ing them and make things worse. – Adrignola talk 15:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Er, I didn't think about the "noinclude" thing. Yeah that could be an issue, unless there's a creative way to wrap it. They are really only intended for the use of experienced editors and their use should be very temporary. Perhaps then the best way to tag them is a subst:whatever where whatever just adds the category inside "noinclude"s. Xerol Oplan (talk) 15:18, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You can wire the template-tagging template so that it doesn't do anything if transcluded onto a non-template page. That's the way w:Template:tfd works. --Pi zero (talk) 16:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I think and  could be better names, and they could be added to the talk page, just like. I agree that help pages need improvement. In the past it was suggesting bringing in help from other projects, but frankly I think the help pages of other projects are just as unhelpful. I think encouraging people to add what they know, like is done with books, is the better way to go. I think Help:Tables shows what can be done when people put there mind to it. --dark lama  17:38, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Tagging the talk pages has the advantage of encouraging discussion. How about  and ?  --Pi zero (talk) 17:59, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Goodbye, So long, farewell and all that
The title is a pun on a famous math book, a bad pun. I am taking a wikibreak, for some undetermined amount of time. Working here has increasingly become less fun. While I love the project, the toll has been a bit much. We have no formal ArbCom or real way to work out differences between editors when things become very heated. (And it is too small a project to hope an ArbCom would really work anyways.) I think my continual bickering is distracting and keeps other editors from improving the project. So it is time to put everything on ice for a while. This is at least one effective way to soothe tempers. There are also some other more personal reasons I taking a wikibreak. And a slim chance I will not return. Basically I have always said bad books keep away editors and I have to decide if that will become a self fulfilling prophecy in my case. In the mean time, keep up the good work, it has been a lot of fun. Thenub314 ( talk ) 19:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not having followed any of the discussions over the better part of a month, I can only say that it is sad when a sensible, skilled contributor (is led to) feel obliged to take a step back in such a way... --Duplode (talk) 01:04, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd have to read it again but it seemed to me that WB:ARBCOM was rejected only because it didn't make sense to have a standing Arbitration Committee due to the infrequency of incidents. If necessary, basically the admins would become a de facto ArbCom.  Arbitration has been done once before... – Adrignola talk 01:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * From my perspective the one incident where it was done before, left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Not only is a need for ArbCom infrequent, but the ArbCom experience itself isn't particularly pleasant. I think ArbCom would be a step back from the move towards trying to make the Wikibooks environment more pleasant and friendly. --dark lama  01:50, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikibooks could probably benefit from a more kinder and gentler approach to working out differences between editors than what ArbCom provides. --dark lama  01:53, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As a slightly related topic, a Global Arbitration Committee has been proposed at Meta. – Adrignola talk 12:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thenub, you have been a great help since I started to work on Geometry for Elementary School. I asked you a lot of questions and, although I have stopped editing the book temporarily to quickly finish some WP stuff, I know that in the future there will be more problems I come across, and I know I can rely on you to answer them, if you were here. It is a great loss to the WB community, that we have lost such an experienced and skilled editor, with a determination to improve all WB books on mathematics. I sincerely hope that you will come back, when your stress is lowered and personal matters resolved. I apologise for this naïve good-bye, but I'm afraid this is the best I could do given my age and experience in life. Wish you all the best while you are away. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:18, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Definition of OR and NPOV
I think we need a new definition of the word 'original research'. What defines original research? Take Happiness for example. I think it is OR because it reaches a new, and possibly biased conclusion with sources that do not mention such a conclusion. Or, consider we have a textbook with a nice joke. (Textbooks usually don't have jokes, but my school Maths book does. There's a question where we're supposed to caluculate where a girl will end up when she steps x steps to the left, y steps to the right, etc, etc. In the diagram the girl says she feels faint!) If the joke has never been published before, is that OR as well? This is pretty straightforward in Wikipedia as things like teaching people to be happy or joking around are out of WP's project scope. But what about in WB, which content policies are not as strict as most other projects?

Another thing to (re)consider is NPOV. Let's face it, most of the humanities textbooks in real life are biased. Every textbook writes Zhuge Liang as if he were a god, Xiang Yu as if he were mentally ill, and Qin Shihuangdi as if he were the devil. (Sorry to the Christian folks here.) Really, it's not evadable to have POVs in history books. Everyone describes Liu Bang as humble and Xiang Yu as arrogant. Describing historical characters with such adjectives is almost part of the course itself. Of course I am talking about my secondary school here and not about posh uni stuff. Now, a real example. Take Plato/Apology. Is it biased towards Plato? Or just presenting plain facts and letting the reader think about it?

So, something should be done about OR and NPOV. Thoughts? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking on the elephant in the room that no one else seemed to want to talk about. It's an issue that's been building up over quite some time. A good approach to the OR problem might be to do a couple of case studies, compare some of our material on WB to paper textbooks, and see what comes out of all that. I think the main problem is textbooks, for the most part, involve not just facts, like most WP articles, but prose explaining the facts and giving context to them. That prose is almost (by WP's definition) OR, and it can be an even bigger problem with certain subject areas. For example, writing conversational phrases for use in language books, or "word problems" in math books. Using conversations from existing language books just runs into tons of copyright issues, and the same with word problems.


 * At the core of all of those things is verifiability. It should be acceptable on WB to write an original fictitious "conversation" between two speakers to illustrate certain vocabulary in a language book, as long as all of the words and their usage is commonly available knowledge to native speakers of the languages in question. What would not be acceptable is making up words, or in a borderline case, using exceptionally localised slang. Similarly in a calculus context one could use an example of a boat floating down a river that is flowing at a given rate to illustrate change in position over time as an application of a derivative, or it could be a car on a road, or a bird in the sky - the concept is the same regardless of the example used, and if you take the specific objects out of the text it becomes harder for the reader to identify with the example. There's only really two options in any of these cases: use an example that's already been done before, running into possible copyvio issues, or "make up" an example which runs into OR issues.


 * Although, I think the main issue is that it's not even referred to as "original research" anywhere on WB:WIW. WB:OR redirects to this section, and the only thing there that might be problematic is the wording of "presenting original ideas" which might include original examples. Original research is not an official policy, and in fact hasn't had a significant change to its content since 2007, so I don't think that's going anywhere anytime soon. (Maybe it should.) This section, even though it's not (yet) policy, does seem like it would cover some areas appropriate to this situation.


 * I think in the end it does boil down to something similar to Wikipedia, in that as long as the ideas represented are verifiable in an academic context (since, after all, we're primarily about providing free textbooks that can be used in a classroom*) then how the text of the book is written shouldn't matter. That section of proposed policy is basically saying the same thing.


 * I think everyone who's participating in discussions needs to, at least once a month, go back and take a look at what our policies actually are. I've seen a lot of references thrown around to "policy says this" when it doesn't actually say that. (Maybe not in those exact words, I'm not going to dig through archives to find specific examples of this, but this has been my interpretation of some discussions, especially on VfD.) If you actually read through WB:WIW you should take away the following:


 * We don't use either a standard or rigid definition of "textbook".
 * Books don't necessarily need to be written for use in a classroom, so long as they are instructional in nature. The only explicit exception to this is video game guides.


 * And aside from some finer points, which only come up on a case-by-case basis, that's all that really needs to be known to decide what content is acceptable, except in the case of what a lot of people are calling "OR". So I think that's the core of it, and I think it could simply be fixed by adding text to the "What Wikibooks includes" section along the lines of "Wikibooks only includes verifiable information." (Maybe not use the word "only".) WIW is deliberately kept brief, and I think anything that comes out of this discussion should keep it brief.


 * * Maybe we're not entirely about that now but I seem to remember that being one of the primary reasons for creating Wikibooks in the first place. Xerol Oplan (talk) 12:31, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Xerol Oplan, I share you view of the problem but, regarding attempts to make it clearer, have you taken a look at WB:WIW/Unstable ? --Panic (talk) 20:38, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but I don't seem to get what you mean... is there anything remarkable on WB:WIW/Unstable that I missed? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know if you missed it or not, but the unstable page, refers to neutral tone and a requirement that works are not primary sources, which may help to deal with some of the nuisances of NPOV and OR. --dark lama  11:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

SXW files
I'm wondering what do do with these, as I push PDFs to Commons. SXW is not a permitted file type for uploading, either to here or to Commons, so these will never be able to be updated. I had removed the column for them at PDF versions. – Adrignola talk 19:27, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Collections extension can output to ODT files if anyone would ever need such a version of the books, so they can safely be deleted. --hagindaz 21:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Software Books and software versions, Part 2

 * Archived discussion here.
 * This discussion was moved from Proposals due to a general acceptance of the need for something to be done.

This didn't really get resolved previously (and now might be a pretty bad time to bring it back up, whatwith all the heated discussions going on above) but I still feel that there's something that needs to be done about the problem, and that there's a fairly easy solution hiding somewhere -- we just have to find it.

To summarise from before (numbered for reference later):
 * 1) Books about computer software run into problems when said software is under active development and either minor or major releases come out.
 * 2) It's rarely clear in existing books what version of the software they pertain to.
 * 3) When software is updated, features may be:
 * 4) Unchanged
 * 5) Changed in implementation but not in usage
 * 6) Changed in usage but not in implementation
 * 7) Completely re-worked
 * 8) Item #3 leads to a potential problem of a book being partially updated to a new version, often just on a single page that a random editor might find and 'correct', not realising the remainder of the book is about a partly or completely different version of the software.
 * 9) Any of the "obvious" solutions require a lot of work just to put into place, not to mention near-constant vigilance of updates to both the book and the software. Most books are not lucky enough to have such a dedicated individual or group simply for maintenance.

The old proposal went something like this (summarised):
 * Major differences in version (i.e. full releases, mainly applicable to commercial software) should probably get dedicated books.
 * Minor differences/updates/patches should be handled by footnotes/sidebars/etc. where the bulk of the book is maintained to the current stable version (or whatever version the authors decide to keep up with).
 * Books should clearly state what version of the software the book, pages, and sections apply to.

I'm actually happier with this now that I look back on it and re-word it a bit. Obviously adherence to this is going to be up to the individual book maintainers and, as always, clearly communicating the guidelines to a random editor is going to be a challenge. The bulk of the work is on the initial charge, which could possibly just be handled with a TOC-template update for each book. Possible ways that could work: Color the links differently for outdated versions; add some kind of template logic to display a message box if a page hasn't been updated; and of course to satisfy the third provision of the proposal just add the version of the software that the book aspires to be a guide to somewhere in the template.

I think my previous qualms were simply because of wanting to keep fully fleshed-out pages for every semi-major release of a piece of software, but the majority of changes are generally going to be either minor enough to be handled in a sidebar/footnote, or major enough to warrant a new book. I think by throwing out my original desires the whole idea becomes a lot more desirable and, perhaps most importantly, maintainable.

So, here we go, round 2, guideline proposal:
 *  My notes/rationale in small text 
 *  Things I want to include but might be going too far for an initial proposal are in strikeout 


 * 1) Books about computer software should make clear the following:
 * 2) *What the current version of the software is in the context of the book. (This would usually be the most recent stable release, but may be different for whatever reason. Essentially, what version this book is intended to be a guide to.)
 * 3) *On each page, what version of the software the text applies to. If the text applies to multiple versions, make clear the version each section applies to. If the differences are minor, explain the difference in a sidebox or footnote. If the differences are major, separate sections or even pages may be more appropriate. If there are many major differences, consider forking to a new book. (Basically need to come up with a better wording for the struck-out section: The idea is to make it as clear as possible to the reader what version is being referred to. I just don't like the idea of specifying exactly how to organize a theoretical generic software WikiBook.)
 * 4) The book should have a well-defined method for clearly identifying what text pertains to what version of the software. Consider placing this information in the book's navigation template(s), or conveying it via infoboxes placed on each page. (Once again don't want to tell people what to do, this is a guideline after all, but some suggestions might be helpful.) In a visible location (such as an "About this Book" page), explain to the reader how to determine what pages/parts of pages apply to which versions (consistent with each individual book's choice of style), and to the editors how to keep the book maintained. (Simple enough. I hope.)

Overall this is pretty generic (maybe too generic) but I wanted to leave it open enough (even though it would only be a guideline to begin with) for the maintainers of the larger books, and of new books, and even new maintainers of old books, to decide what they want to do for themselves, because what works well for one book might not work at all in another book.

When leaving comments and possible changes/amendments on this proposal please consider whether you're commenting on the wording or the meaning of the proposal, or possibly where the wording affects the meaning because I'm not perfect with words. Xerol Oplan (talk) 13:40, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Examples

mediawiki seems to do a decent job of being clear when something pertains to specific versions better than it did in the past. I'd prefer to do something similar. Take a look at the examples. That approach allows them to be used per page or per section. --dark lama  14:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Any examples of where these are actually in use? Xerol Oplan (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I have only noticed versioning templates use in table and configuration changes so far. Examples:
 * mw:Manual:Page table mw:Manual:Categorylinks table mw:Manual:$wgLocalDatabases
 * The examples I made try to stand out more to alert readers where changes are forward compatible (green), obsolete (gray), and version specific (red). --dark lama  14:38, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that the warnings and indications are important but again don't see a need to make this a separated guideline, why don't you (or someone else) condense into the Manual of Style as no one seems to objects to the need for this information. --Panic (talk) 16:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Panic. It will be a good addition to the MoS. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 23:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Template Samples
Before adding anything to the MoS I wanted to have some templates in place so people would have a starting point. I've created two, at User:Xerol/TemplateSandbox/SoftwareVersionHeader and User:Xerol/TemplateSandbox/SoftwareVersionSidebox. I also put in some sample usage in this section. The category thing isn't implemented yet and might be nixed. Xerol Oplan (talk) 22:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Added "Newer" and "Future" versions per Panic's suggestion. Xerol Oplan (talk) 22:41, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've turned the examples I used above into a template with example usage. --<font color="midnightblue">dark lama  00:19, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Requesting comments on all 3 styles of templates. If no objections within about a week I'll move mine to the template namespace and add it into the MoS. Xerol Oplan (talk) 12:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I prefer your templates in appearance. However, the syntax is too complex.  The parameters ought to be lowercase instead of requiring capitalization and CamelCase. SectionType could become scope, SoftwareName could become name, SoftwareVersion could become version, and DeprecationType could become type. Inputs also should be lowercase, as in <tt>Future</tt> becomes <tt>future</tt>. Also, if you could make it match up in width to mbox and its variants, it won't clash with other notices on a book's root page. – Adrignola talk 13:43, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the syntax is too complex. I think ">", "<", and "=" will also be easier to remember than the possible options for type, like I did with the template I created. I could add "!" to mean future versions maybe? --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark  lama  14:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OTOH couldn't writing about future versions of a software which don't exist yet be considered OR? --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  14:20, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe or maybe not, depends. Sometimes there are draft standards, road maps, beta versions (or beta should just be a diff. version?) etc. that that could allow someone to reasonably write about what the next version will look like in some verifiable way. Even if it needs to be corrected when the actual version comes out I would find this reasonable.  Thenub314 (talk) 15:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * As long as the information's verifiable (with a beta release, pre-release documentation, or even just developer's news items) I don't see an OR problem, as long as the source software is available in some fashion.
 * Regarding comments, won't the use of '=' in a #switch: template parameter screw things up? I don't see any particular use for so perhaps using them equivalently to ≤ and ≥ to make for easier use would be appropriate: Use < for any version up to and including the specified one, > for any version including and after, and = for a specific one. Perhaps even = to specify a generic version family (2.x) and == for a specific version (2.1.38). Those last two could be used in cases where a whole page applies to any version 2.x, while specific sections refer to 2.1.x and 2.1.38. Xerol Oplan (talk) 20:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A '=' can be used, you just have to work around its special meaning. In my template though I ended up deciding that using equal to as the default would be easier for most people. I thought using both "≥" and "≤" would make understanding what versions apply clearer in cases of minor versions, as well as when what is described applies both to the version and either all later or previous versions. You could do something like "> 2.1" when you mean version 2.2 and later. However some software continues to develop along multiple version lines, so what would happen when "2.1.1" comes out? "2.1.1" is be greater than "2.1", so the template might no longer mean what was intended, and that could go unnoticed. If "≥" and "≤" are an issue "+" and "-" could perhaps be used instead? --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  03:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was simply suggesting using the characters > and < instead of ≥ and ≤ for ease of typing, so  shows Symbol version older.svg and   shows Symbol version newer.svg. I doubt a strict > is ever going to be useful, but a strict < might be in some cases (if there's a 1.9.x branch and a 2.x branch being developed, and something only applies to 1.9.x and updates to it). In that case it might be better to use the Symbol version generic.svg icon with "1.9.x" as the version.
 * (And before anyone complains that the icons are hard to make out inline like that, keep in mind they're intended for use at infobox sizes.) Xerol Oplan (talk) 03:50, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've made some icons for use in these templates, and put them on commons. Xerol Oplan (talk) 22:48, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I need some help here, where is the actual styling code for mbox located? Or should I just try to make SoftwareVersion call mbox? Xerol Oplan (talk) 23:17, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It's at MediaWiki:Common.css/Mboxes.css. Mbox actually just detects the namespace and calls one of the other *boxes.  ambox is normally used in main space, so you could base it off that. – Adrignola talk 00:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it possible to get new classes added to that or should I just use inline CSS for now? I want to use a different colorset (one that matches the icons, ideally). Xerol Oplan (talk) 00:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I can add classes to that, though you'll probably test with inline anyway. – Adrignola talk 04:03, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, this is just giving me trouble now. See User:Xerol/TemplateSandbox/SoftwareVersionHeader. Any help is appreciated, feel free to edit it. Xerol Oplan (talk) 09:59, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the help, I was trying to avoid using tables (stupid best-practice HTML mental programming of mine) but eventually caved. These look just about ready for use now. Xerol Oplan (talk) 12:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Templates are live
I've added them to the templates listing with a brief example of each; full documentation is on the template pages.

Some possible future changes: But I think what we've put together will work for now. Feel free to start using and abusing them so we can find out if there's anything horribly wrong with the template code. Xerol Oplan (talk) 13:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Allow use of a custom image
 * Custom width on header version
 * Custom colors

What's next is to put together some basic guidelines to put into the MoS. The technical usage of the templates is self-explanatory at this point but some guidelines on where and when to use them need to be assembled. Xerol Oplan (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Added a "uses" parameter which allows the templates to be used on pages that refer to the use of software but don't necessarily document it. Xerol Oplan (talk) 14:37, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Just read over the MoS real quick, there's still references in there to colon-separated book titles. The whole thing could use a bit of a reworking. Xerol Oplan (talk) 10:21, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Book titles
I think there should be some kind of restriction on book titles. Why 'Muggle's Guide to Harry Potter' when 'Guide to Harry Potter' will suffice? Why 'Blender 3D: Noob to Pro' when there is simply 'Blender 3D'? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:10, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There's two main reasons that I can think of off the top of my head, and I'm sure there's others that will be mentioned:
 * One subject can be covered by multiple books, in different styles. If someone were to just write a straight-up manual on Blender, that would still be acceptable.
 * Wikibooks is not Wikipedia. These are books, and just because they're textbooks doesn't mean they can't have interesting titles. Sure, it makes organizing and cataloging them a bit more of a task but the title is likely the first thing a reader is going to see about a book (or the cover image). There's no point in writing books here if no one's going to read them, so we might as well use everything we can to make them more interesting. Xerol Oplan (talk) 10:16, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Golf
Golf needs expanding thank you. --72.73.118.93 (talk) 18:30, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Feel free to do it yourself. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:31, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

RFP
The second paragraph of RfP is overlapping the archive box in Chrome. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 14:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Never mind. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 08:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Nah, it's happening again. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 14:23, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Which version of chrome do you have. Mine is 6.0.458.1 and there is no overlapping problem when viewing that page. Srhat (talk) 07:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Now it's OK again. Computers are funny things. Mine is 5.0.375.99. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 09:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

$wgNamespacesWithSubpages
I was viewing InitialiseSettings.php page. I noticed that in the $wgNamespacesWithSubpages array, 'enwikibooks' array has 4 => 0 value, but 4 is the Wikibooks namespace and subpage feature is active for this namespace. Why does it say "4 => 0" while it is active? Srhat (talk) 12:58, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't quite say why. It would appear that this page I'm editing now shouldn't be a subpage with that configuration. – Adrignola talk 13:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * There conf setup is a mess. You can find "$wgNamespacesWithSubpages[4] = 1;" in CommonSettings.php. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  14:46, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I saw that english wikipedia array has a + in front of enwiki, explanation on that page (InitialiseSettings.php) says The '+' in front of the DB name means 'add to the default'. ... Default configuration says subpage feature is enabled on project namespace. Maybe this custom configuration can't override the default one, because it doesn't have '+'? Srhat (talk) 15:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * They've been able to adjust it somewhere, as we used to not have subpages for templates until we made the request and they enabled it for that namespace. – Adrignola talk 11:56, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

"Community" not capitalized on the left-hand browsing thing
Is it possible to capitalize "community" on the left-hand side? (I don't know what it's actually called) Herr Beethoven (talk) 15:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes_check.svg|15px| ]] Fixed. The title for that section was in MediaWiki:Sidebar and entered by hand. On the Monobook skin all the headings are lowercase, so it doesn't matter, but on the Vector skin, it does.  I've not been using the Beta (because it's Beta), so I didn't notice that.  Thanks for pointing it out. – Adrignola talk 15:51, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Action complete
Revision of LaTeX/Tables successfully flagged. (view reviewed versions) You may want to view this flagged version and see if it is now the stable version of this page. Return to Special:UnreviewedPages. Return to Special:OldReviewedPages. Perhaps add RC to the links? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 14:36, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible...
For WJ:Particles, I have been planning to make a final quiz at the end. I've been thinking I could make an interactive version of the close-ended questions with flash. However, AFAIK commons does not accept flash, so if I do get round to making one it's going to my website. Will linking there from here be spamming?


 * We (project) don't have a definition for it (from MediaWiki Administrator's Handbook "in wikimedia wikis, spamming is the addition of unwelcome commercial links and/or language, either added to already existing pages, or added as an entire page."), but if the objective isn't only to make a profit, is in line with that Wikibook page, doesn't display any abusive text, install a virus (or similar hack) and because Workbooks permits anyone to add a similar link. I don't think that there will be an issue, if the page on Wikibooks isn't created only with the intention to promote Wikibookians to click that particular link. --Panic (talk) 01:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * question-answer might also work in some cases. – Adrignola talk 01:24, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

custom css
Can someone tell me if I am doing this correctly? User:Arlen22/vector.css Arlen22 (talk) 20:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You are missing a few things. Should be url not . Mediawiki needs to know that you don't want to it to try to process the page as if it contained wikitext, otherwise things like "#" could be replaced with an unsorted list which css won't understand. MediaWiki also needs to know to set the mime header correctly because some web browsers depend on that sort of thing. The final page should look like:  --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark  lama  20:26, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Yes_check.svg|15px| ]] Fixed, Thanks, Arlen22 (talk) 20:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

list of categories
I would like to make a page that has links to categories, most to commmons, and some to here at wikibooks. The commons ones seem to work, but the wikibooks one (Blender_images) shows up as a red link. I know the category exists, as http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Category:Blender_images comes up. Pearts (talk) 00:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

wikibooks:Category:Blender_images

Commons:Category:Blender_3D

Commons:Category:Blender_3D_icons

Commons:Category:Blender_3D_screenshots

Commons:Category:Blender_3D_splash_screens

Commons:Category:Blender_3D_suzanne_primitive


 * When the category is internal, you should miss out the 'wikibooks' part so that it goes . This will produce Category:Blender images. Please avoid underscores when linking, even though it works – it looks ugly. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 01:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That rocks! thanks! Pearts (talk) 11:19, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You're welcome. :) Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

On another a related note. Blender is released under a free license which means any image of its interface is also going to be under a free license, fair use can never apply, all remaining Blender images will likely be moved to Wikimedia Commons, and the local category will likely be deleted once its empty as a result. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  13:06, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

English in Use
I'm concerned about this one. Cambridge University Press has published a very successful series called 'In Use', including Grammar, Vocabulary and Pronunciation, with different levels (Elementary, Intermediate, Upper intermediate, Advanced) and a lot of other topics (phrasal verbs, collocations, business vocabulary, academic vocabulary, professional vocabulary) with workbooks (test your English vocabulary, Advanced Grammar in Use supplementary exercises). So, what is English in Use doing here? It gives the impression that we're trying to make a giant copyvio of that series. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If the book isn't a copyright violation, then it isn't. Possibly Cambridge could try to go after Wikibooks for a trademark violation, but it's not our job to worry about the legal aspects of the Wikimedia Foundation.  When the WMF decides to dedicate time to worrying about the fate of Wikibooks, I'll dedicate time to worrying about possible legal threats to the WMF. – Adrignola talk 12:48, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Print version issues
Today I noticed that the Chapters summary I was using isn't rightly displayed on the print version, print version of the book chapters (chapter1) (bottom of the page). Anyone understands why? Is it a Wikimedia bug? Adrignola already tried <small ></small> and regular HTML and it doesn't seem to work. --Panic (talk) 02:33, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It works on Wikipedia; see . Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 03:26, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Strange. Can it be some code that is leaking from a template or something in the above content that is making the interference ? I have checked 2 chapters and both had the issue. --Panic (talk) 04:04, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Can't be. C++ Programming/Chapters/C++/Summary has nothing else but the BookCat. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 05:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that lead me to look at the effect more closely. It seems that the issue is the Template:Stage short and Template:Stage. --Panic (talk) 08:28, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right. The "noprint" thing is a dead giveaway. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait, no. The noprint thing is also included in WP's version of stage short. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

The issue was an unclosed span with a noprint class in stage short, causing everything following it to not appear when printing. – Adrignola talk 12:18, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

combining books
I'd like to combine Blender 3D: HotKeys with Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro. There exists a link to the hotkeys on the B3D NTP table of contents Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/Hotkeys that seems to go thru a redirect to arrive at the hotkeys book.

So is it just a simple move of "Blender 3D: HotKeys", to "Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro/HotKeys" and somehow removing the redirect from some special table in wikibooks? Pearts (talk) 12:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not quite. All of the templates using that book's naming in Category:Blender 3D: HotKeys/Templates need to be renamed and the calls to them have to be fixed to reference the new location of them.  There are 23 subpages of Blender 3D: HotKeys that would have to be moved and links to them fixed.  Moving any of these will leave behind redirects that will keep things from breaking while in the process of merging, but to do it right, it's not a simple move; link fixes will also be needed. – Adrignola talk 12:41, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

WJ + Mainspace in template:Subject page
How can both WJ and Mainspace be accepted in template:subject page? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
 * They aren't and cannot be with the underlying code using Template:CategoryList, which accepts a single namespace parameter. All Wikijunior books are linked from Wikijunior or Wikijunior:All Books.  – Adrignola talk 12:52, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

List of book templates
Is there a list of all the templates for books? The kind like the one above. Arlen22 (talk) 13:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Most templates are for use in books. Templates provide a starting point for some available templates. Category:Templates is the parent category for all templates that have been categorized. Special:UncategorizedTemplates will show you the templates that haven't been categorized yet. Special:Allpages/Template: will show you all available templates. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  14:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The closest template to your example is:
 * --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  14:11, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * @Arlen22: Does this answer your question? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 05:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. Thanks, Arlen22 (talk) 13:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Category:Colors
Does anyone else think that the pages of this category are a bit out of scope? :) Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:24, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. I'm removing the pages from the category and notifying the person who added them.  It's not how we do it here. – Adrignola talk 12:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Contents box at top mising
This page Blender 3D: Noob to Pro/Modeling a 3D Parachute in Blender does not have a contents box at the top showing the titles of the === sections, any idea how to add it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pearts (discuss • contribs)
 * I beg to differ. I see a contents box on that page, with a second level heading almost the same as the page heading (bad form since the page heading is a level one) and the level three headings for the different steps. – Adrignola talk 03:27, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I seem to have pasted in a link to the wrong page! look at this one please Blender 3D: Noob to Pro/Model a Low Poly Head this is the one that seems to be missing it's contents box. I'll take another look at the headings on the parachute one, thanks for pointing it out! Pearts (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2010 (UTC)


 * ✅. It cannot appear automatically because there are too few sections. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:56, 29 July 2010 (UTC)