Wikibooks:Reading room/Archives/2010/August

Messier Index
What is your take on Messier Index? Should it be as big as it is with all the references? Or should we pare it down so it is like a handbook? Arlen22 (talk) 15:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * My take is Wikibooks is not paper. --dark lama  16:59, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * But, still, it is too big to be feasibly useful. It could take a rewriting. Any other thoughts? Arlen22 (talk) 20:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikibooks has bigger books than the Messier Index. How does the size make the work unfeasible? --dark lama  20:32, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem is that it is too junky for a short-and-to-the-point quick-reference guide. Arlen22 (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Format and structure is secondary to usability. Content is King, if a rewriting will remove content then you shouldn't do it.
 * I have attempted to provide other organizational avenues to one of the books I'm continuing to, and it has lead to huge problems, there are different problems with "Wikibooks are not paper" and "Wikibooks is not paper" (the implications are different). I think that a Wikibook should be granted the chance to aspire to be paper. (Not objecting to multimedia content here, only the right of choice regarding format, structure and usability).
 * What are you inclined to change ? Why not initiate a discussion on the book's talk first, since the people you should attempt to reach are the work's readers (place a note on the book's TOC).
 * One thing that as a user I can comment is that the primary page is too extensive in content, and the cover image on top should be relegated to another location, a monolithic version with a print option would be my favorite improvement on the work.
 * As an editor I prefer a monolithic view of the project I'm working on. For editors not having a complete view on the book structure is extremely problematic, most editors keep to specific areas of interest and mostly this is reduced to a few pages of a book. I do think that most readers act in the same way, most will never look to the complete work. --Panic (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestion. Arlen22 (talk) 21:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In order to plan out how to make this a strong Wikibook, a question that needs to be answered clearly is: why should this be on Wikibooks instead of Wikipedia? (I'm serious &mdash; it's not a rhetorical question.)  It feels kind of like a macropedia, and macropedias per se are not in-scope for Wikibooks (except on Wikijunior).  Greatly compounding that, the pages of this book are severely in need of dewikification (even the Introduction needs dewikifying).  Right now, it feels like an adjunct of Wikipedia, and to be a proper Wikibook it has to not be that.  --Pi zero (talk) 22:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, since it is a cobbling together of a hundred pages that I had brought in from Wikipedia as a result of a request for import, this is not surprising to me. So the answer is that unless any modification is made, they were/are on Wikipedia.  And that 300 page import requester hasn't been back either.  – Adrignola talk 22:29, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Pi Zero, that is what I was wanting, someone else's opinion on it, many thanks, also to Panic. Adrignola, I am "the 300 page import requester that hasn't been back yet". The reason I haven't requested it is because this one isn't done yet. The reason it isn't done yet is because it is too junky for a short-and-to-the-point quick-reference guide. Arlen22 (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Should we remove all external links in all the pages? What do you all think? Arlen22 (talk) 22:47, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The point raised by Pi zero is pertinent and extremely relevant to any alteration, even if it is a bit uncomfortable for me since I know the effort you have put into the work. I'm not big in astronomy so my opinion of the work in terms of being a teaching material is not relevant, but there are other improvements that can be added. What is the index? How was it created? What is it's purpose/function? Defining a scope would probably address some of the concerns about viewing it simply as a Macropedia.
 * In regards to external links and in special to Wikipedia my opinion is that they should be preserved if possible, maintainable and useful (I find them more useful as links than as side notes telling me that the info is on Wikipedia). In my contributions I try to make the text as easier to fallow as possible and if the information isn't already covered in the book or on Wikibooks I will often point to the relevant Wikipedia article. I will often change old Wikipedia references to the point where the content on the book has evolved to covered the item (but some items will always remain outside of the scope of the book). --Panic (talk) 23:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Arlen, you are the 100 page import requester. This person is the 300 page import requester. – Adrignola talk 00:10, 25 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oops, I think I misunderstood you. I was thinking about importing the Herschel Catalog, which is 400 pages, once this one is done, and do the same to that one. I just figured you were meaning that as I had talked about it before. Arlen22 (talk) 00:21, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Second Discussion
What do you think would be more useful?


 * 1) A short-and-to-the-point quick-reference guide.
 * 2) A Wikipedia book.

I think the first. Arlen22 (talk) 20:15, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Messier Index and anything you get done with after importing in the future should not look like something one would see at Wikipedia:Books. Ideally, a reader wouldn't be able to tell that the book had many different imports used to bootstrap its material. The pages should transition nicely in educating on a subject. After all, Wikipedia already has 1,000+ such "books" already. – Adrignola talk 00:10, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

and the only contributor is Joe Bloggs
I feel that the 'and the only contributor is Joe Bloggs' part should be cut out from admins' deletion summaries; they seem to serve little purpose and in some way sounds like it's criticising the person who was the only contributor. Also, it often produces something like: Spam, vandalism or nonsense: content was 'Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet...' and the only contributor was Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 08:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah. I think it is part of the script. It also annoys me a little since at times it is incorrect. It should state something like "request for speedy deletion was valid" or just "per speedy deletion request" (since the rest can be implied), it would be cool if the requester name could be stated...  --Panic (talk) 10:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That portion of the comment is essential if we state that a page was requested to be deleted by the only significant contributor. It provides the ability to audit in some way what is being done and contact the person if wishing to appeal to them to leave the content intact.  Leaving a portion of the page in the deletion summary also provides a snapshot of the content for verification that it matches the deletion reason.  If the requester is different than the previous contributor, then you won't see that last portion.  So it will never be incorrect on that.  In some cases, however, it may not be relevant to the deletion reason. I prefer more information to less.  Far be it for me to start dictating to others whether or not they use the clean deletion summary gadget or whether they should be required to censor information about a deletion. – Adrignola talk 12:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Can it be corrected to "and last contributor was ..." ? --Panic (talk) 23:01, 31 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That would not be correct. The "only contributor..." only appears if there has been a single contributor to the page as it is being deleted.  Anyone else and that's not even added to the pre-filled deletion summary.  An admin could manually note who tagged a page for speedy deletion though. – Adrignola talk 00:05, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think I've seen pages that I've tagged for deletion that I wasn't the only contributor (hence my reference in the above posts to "at times it is incorrect"). I'll wait until I noticed it again as to point to an example. --Panic (talk) 00:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you moved that page to another page and tagged it for deletion? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 01:00, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Ha I see, you may probably be right. If I perform a move I'm left as the creator of the original page location (even if I'm in reality the creator of the destination location), my confusion was that some times I don't move pages on merges but request the history merge and the closing comment "seems" inconsistent. --Panic (talk) 01:50, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Choosing High Quality Children's Literature
Anyone else thinks it looks like a macropedia? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 07:20, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Category:Wikijunior Policy
Most pages of this category are not policies. However, they all have one thing in common: they are obsolete. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 07:21, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * From my (no doubt imperfect) understanding of the history, most of them are policy or in its close penumbra, or were in their day. Wikijunior:All Books has sort of migrated out of the penumbra since the new title policy lapsed.  I could see moving it out to the parent category, I suppose.


 * That would leave, as far as I can figure, one page here that is current rather than historical. Historical pages should be categorized, too.  If there were several current pages scattered in a welter of historical ones, I could see separating the historical ones into a subcategory; but if there's only one current one, a simpler solution might be to give that one page a whitespace sort key so it appears at the top of the list, where it's sure to be noticed.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:54, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Change Issues in Curriculum and Instruction/Other Issues Worth Investigation
An IP has suggested moving this page to 'Worth Inverstigating. I think he or she is right. Thoughts? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 07:33, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * To my ear, the current "worth investigation" does not sound right. Non-idiomatic.  Phrasings that flow naturally for me are "worth investigating" and "worthy of investigation".  "Worth investigating" is simpler.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Good, that's three users... :) Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:01, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Agree. Should you desire an admin can move that page and all its subpages at once. – Adrignola talk 13:41, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That's four. :) If you don't mind, Adrignola, please move it to the destination, per consensus. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:52, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Yes_check.svg|15px| ]] Done. – Adrignola talk 15:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Weird username
A user called User:用戶, which means, um, user in Chinese, has made a userpage here. I checked his or her global contribs and realised that he has made many edits globally, but only on his or her userpage. Is this some joke from a Chinese project or a placeholder that a Chinese project wants to use? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 07:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Now that you've got me paranoid from the discussion in the other room, I'd say it could be a vandal-in-waiting. Maybe after four days pass something will happen on the projects other than Wikipedia with its ten edit minimum for autoconfirmation. – Adrignola talk 12:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Update: He or she has put up his or her email on his ENWP userpage. He or she has also stated that he or she is an uncyclopaedian. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Another update: He or she has requested renaming at zhwiki and succeeded. He or she has informed me so on my user talk. So he or she's not a vandal after all. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 04:49, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

SEWB
What will we do about ? Although some content can be merged into Wikijunior, what are we doing about it? — I-20 the highway  04:58, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So the discussion starts again. :) Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 06:15, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't have to start all over again. Here's where there was planning (with discussion on the talk page: Simple English merger. – Adrignola talk 12:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've finished importing all the usable content from Simple English Wikibooks. Take a look at Simple English merger and the nice table I spent hours updating to point to the destination of content or the pages which are superior to what is found at Simple. – Adrignola talk 03:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. We can file in Bugzilla to close down the Simple English Wikibooks hard and fast. — I-20 the highway  16:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it would be better to have it for historical purposes. Diego Grez (talk) 16:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's fine too. — I-20 the highway  16:53, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikijunior in the news
Examiner.com has an article discussing the grant the Beck Foundation provided for the Wikijunior project and whether the money was well spent. The author is Gregory Kohs, better known as Thekohser, a longtime critic of Wikimedia Foundation practices. – Adrignola talk 13:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The article has several errors (some Adrignola have already addressed IIRC in another user's talk), but I also see it as having valid criticism to how stuff works and an outright failing by WMF (if the facts are correct). On a side note I do think that the way Thekohser was blocked on this project is problematic (I'm not aware nor did I fallow actions outside of Wikibooks), and probably lead to an unnecessary escalation and actions that damage Wikijunior and its volunteers reputation. We do need critical thinking in the projects.
 * Any issue related to content covered by the article should be addressed and if necessary corrected by the Wikijunior community as soon as possible. --Panic (talk) 14:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Which talk page do you refer to? Could you elaborate on the errors, since you've been around longer than I have? – Adrignola talk 17:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Texas Textbooks
I've started a new wikibook specifically addressing the controversy over the Texas Board of Education's new standards for social studies textbooks in Texas. I could use some help with this as it is my first wikibook and I'm not sure if I'm doing it correctly. You can see what I've got so far here.
 * Hi. Please be aware that Wikibooks must have a neutral point of view (NPOV) and no original research (OR). Please avoid these in the making of this book. Also, please note that it is possible to link to the book directly. Rather than like this, you can do it like this. The code is . Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 09:59, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear, when I write "The Texas textbooks will not be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV)" I am referring to the standard textbooks that Texas public schools are required to use, not the wikibook supplement. The supplement should be written from a NPOV, indeed that will be its main feature! I am not sure what wikibooks counts as NPOV and what is not. For example, I am not sure if the statement I have written describing the project currently counts as NPOV. For right now I would like to leave it as is as a useful way of describing the project to collaborators. With time I expect it will be rewritten to better reflect the project as it develops. Thank you for showing me now to use direct links.--Thomas Gokey 10:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I see. But in fact, I didn't read that part. :) Violating our NPOV and OR policies are common mistakes that new users make, so I thought I'd warn you first. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:07, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikibreak
When school starts I'd like to use the Wikibreak enforcer to stop me from logging in to Wikipedia and Wikibooks. Wikipedia has this neat script. Does it work on Wikibooks too? Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:03, 11 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see anything that would keep it from working here. However, I will not be testing it as I prefer not to be locked out (though you could probably turn off JavaScript to bypass it). – Adrignola talk 12:19, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Into
What's happening? Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:41, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The user transposed two words. The diff shows that as removing the first word from the old version, and inserting it in a different place in the new version.  --Pi zero (talk) 12:09, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
 * * RED FACED* thanks, I was dumb not to notice. :) Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:25, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

But I don't like the new look
It looks like wikibooks will switch to vector in the near future. If we get community consensus, is it possible to beg the developers to switch back to Monobook by default? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 04:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) If WB kept monobook it would be the only Wikimedia project using monobook. Not a good idea.
 * 2) There are an unexpectedly large amount of people who really like vector. I doubt you'd be able to get consensus for it even if it was just about how many editors "like" monobook over vector.
 * 3) Vector is (I suspect) mostly for the benefit of people who aren't really familiar with wikis, rather than for the benefit of regular editors.
 * Basically, many editors don't like the new skin because we're not used to it, and it is possible for individual editors to switch back. It really doesn't make sense for Wikibooks to keep monobook. Changes are annoying, but people get used to it. If somehow Wikibooks did have actual consensus for changing back after all the usual bureaucracy lags went through and the community had already been using vector for a few weeks, WB could probably switch back to monobook (this is just me guessing, I don't actually know this for a fact). Does anyone actually think this would be best for the project? I highly doubt it. My suggestion is to just drop the subject and go along with the change, however annoying it may be. Arguments about which things people "like" waste huge amounts of time and are generally completely unproductive. --Yair rand (talk) 07:52, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect URL
The link to a PDF file at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Non-Programmer%27s_Tutorial_for_Python_2.6 takes me to "Commons:upload". The link for "printable version" opens a long HTML file, which is what I would have expected.
 * Are you sure? It works for me. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes - the issue is clicking the "A PDF version is available." link on the right side of the screen. This prompts the "Commons:upload" link, rather than downloading the PDF file.


 * That PDF was moved to Commons and I believe the version of the page for logged-out users was not refreshed. I manually refreshed the page for you so it should work now. – Adrignola talk 12:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Perfect, Thank you!

CheckUser nomination
Thenub314 has been nominated for CheckUser. Please provide your input. --Pi zero (talk) 20:33, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

feedback on my idea would be great :-)
I intend to develop an illustrated alphabet textbook for little people - along the lines of 'A is for....' etc. - I'm particularly interested in trying to make the print version look as wonderful as possible, and have half an idea to be able to produce quite a few of these books focused on different interests (city / country / wildlife / people etc. etc.) - I'm very new around here, so didn't want to just rush in, and have tried to read up on guidelines, policies - if no-one objects, I'll create a starting point for my idea, and get going - join in if you think it sounds fun :-) - I'd like to finish my first one before the end of the month...... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I should say that I intend to take some ideas / inspiration / markup from the Wikijunior:Alphabet pages - and maybe when completed, my attempt might fit within that project? - I'm unsure as to whether or not to begin 'construction' in that space, or another - and ideas or advice would be appreciated.... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:15, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * In addition to WJ:Alphabet, there are also WJ:Animal Alphabet, WJ:Flower Alphabet, and WJ:Food Alphabet. (I got that list from Special:AllPages; for some reason, Flower Alphabet wasn't listed at WJ:All Books.)  --Pi zero (talk) 11:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * In answer to 'I'm unsure as to whether or not to begin 'construction' in that space, or another', feel free to begin your work in the Wikijunior namespace. We allow a lot of nearly empty books in the mainspace. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 11:16, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Template:Wikijunior:Small Numbers Navigation
I was translating it to zh when I discovered that it doesn't work for Wikijunior:Small Numbers/1. Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:08, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

FlaggedRevs FAIL
This ought to explain. — I-20 the highway  21:15, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * What browser are you using? --Diego Grez (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Mozilla Firefox. I will try another, if you want. — I-20 the highway  22:18, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I'm getting the same error. This showed up on Wikimedia's IRC:

 Special:Log/review approve-i * Diego Grez *  reviewed a version of Cookbook:Cola de mono: [: , This is the stable version, approved on $2.There are [http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RevisionReview&oldid=$1&diff=cur&diffonly=0 $3 pending


 * It must be a system failure. Diego Grez (talk) 22:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Looks like our requested changes might of finally went through and some changes are needed to reflect that. --dark lama  22:29, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes indeed. See 24304. – Adrignola talk 22:36, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * They seem to have messed it up somehow though. --dark lama  22:39, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've reopened. — I-20 the highway  22:42, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

While RC patrolling I tried to sight a revision and got: : &lt;revreview-value-0&gt;  &lt;revreview-value-1&gt;  &lt;revreview-value-2&gt;  &lt;revreview-value-3&gt; However, it looked kinda different from I-20's pics. BTW, that was a lot of emails. :) Anyways, the same thing hapenned in Chrome and IE, and desparate attempts to purge and clear cache failed. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 05:35, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm seeing similar problems, and I haven't changed browser or any configuration since two days ago, when it was working fine. --Fishpi (talk) 10:50, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That is still related to what I-20 saw, but now with only one criteria instead of 3. I've been able to fix that on our end now. There is a still a comment box though. --dark lama  12:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, why am I still a rollbacker? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 10:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Groups that have been removed likely still have to be removed from individuals too. The functionality associated with the group is gone, but it may still say your part of that group. --dark lama  12:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I reopened yet again to correct the group memberships and comment box. I hope they didn't goof up the custom settings for the reader feedback extension. – Adrignola talk 12:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * And I discovered reader feedback was only enabled for the main namespace and not the Cookbook or Wikijunior. – Adrignola talk 12:32, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

It's all been worked out now, except for the comment field for flagged revisions and removal of people from groups that can no longer be added. New pages of note: Special:AbuseFilter, Special:AbuseLog, Special:Tags, Edit filter, Special:ProblemChanges (cross between Special:Tags and Special:OldReviewedPages), and Special:RatedPages. – Adrignola talk 19:39, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Groups taken care of with 24816. – Adrignola talk 20:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Starting a new book
Can i have the easy way to start one? Thank you for your time. --Yesper (talk) 18:32, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Our quick-start guide is at Help:Starting a new page or book. – Adrignola talk 18:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Vector announcement
The vector announcement reads

Wikibooks is getting a new look. Help us find bugs and complete user interface translations. (before 25/8/2010)

Could you change the bold text to: (before Aug 25, 2010)? That is more universally understandable.

Also, where is that set? Arlen22 (talk) 19:28, 14 August 2010 (UTC)


 * We cannot do anything about that notice here. It is a central notice set by the administrators at Meta. – Adrignola talk 21:36, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can do... but I suspect the numbers are used because it is one less thing to translate. –   23:27, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
 * We used this format for the date because dd-mm-yyyy is more universal date format (see Date and Time Notation by Country). And yes, translations are based off of the English version and (if I understand correctly) will default to the English version if the message is untranslated (assuming there is no fallback language designated).  So we though we'd use the more universal format even if it makes it slightly more unusual for users in the US.  I do see that someone has changed the format to "Aug xx, 2010,"  which I'd recommend changing back. Howief (talk) 17:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, changing the message this way only changes it for English, and loses the date for all the other languages this banner is running on. This banner is running on a vast majority of nonenglish languages. We wanted to add the date but preserve the translations (since it's fairly short notice to get this banner translated) and this was the best way to do so while keeping at least one understandabile element, since we're going under the assumption that translations will not arrive on time. (Changing it back)Nimish Gautam (talk) 18:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the full stop should be blue, not orange. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 14:05, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Importing...
I've tried to import History of Hong Kong thrice. The first time I got:

Database error From Wikibooks, the open-content textbooks collection A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "GlobalUsage::insertLinks". Database returned error "1205: Lock wait timeout exceeded; Try restarting transaction (10.0.0.238)".

The second and third times I got:

English

Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem. This is probably temporary and should be fixed soon. Please try again in a few minutes.

You may be able to get further information in the #wikipedia channel on the Freenode IRC network.

The Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organisation which hosts some of the most popular sites on the Internet, including Wikipedia. It has a constant need to purchase new hardware. If you would like to help, please donate.

If you report this error to the Wikimedia System Administrators, please include the details below. Request: POST http://en.wikibooks.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Import&action=submit, from 113.253.206.239 via sq61.wikimedia.org (squid/2.7.STABLE7) to 208.80.152.72 (208.80.152.72) Error: ERR_READ_TIMEOUT, errno [No Error] at Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:46:18 GMT

I'm new to importing, so what was happening? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Heh... the import did take place. Sorry to be a bother. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This is an issue administrators have dealt with for some time. Now you get the fun as well.  If it fails and states that it "could not open import file", it's possible to pull a single revision.  However, I've noticed something.  If you do get the error above where it goes to a new page, it's often simply because the request took too long, but it continues to pull revisions in the background.  If you wait a bit of time, then try to import again, it will often tell you that all the revisions have been imported already.  Sometimes it will pull a few revisions in the background and then stop, so you have to try again.  It will skip the revisions already brought in and do some more, hopefully finishing all of them and showing success.  For very large histories, you may have to make multiple "pulls".  – Adrignola talk 14:09, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

List of completed books
Is there a list of completed books somewhere? Douglas W. Mitchell (talk) 02:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm still working on tagging all the books, but the ones that have been tagged so far are in Category:Completed books. – Adrignola talk 02:06, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

How to ask questions in these forums?
I have posted this question by editing the page in Reading room/General which contains all the Q&A. Is that really the only way to post a question? It seems awfully cumbersome and error-prone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by RightAngle (discuss • contribs)
 * Just check the top of this page! — I-20 the highway  23:20, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is less than ideal. There is a project to improve how we use discussion pages, but it isn't ready to be used yet. You can indent by prepending a : to your paragraph. Please try to remember to sign your posts here. When you insert ~, the software changes it to a signature and timestamp like &rarr; –   23:21, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Looks like the <tt>Thread</tt> and <tt>Summary</tt> namespaces are already set up for LiquidThreads. – Adrignola talk 17:03, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * And now they're gone again. How strange. --Yair rand (talk) 19:22, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That was a deployment error - it was mentioned on wikitech-l if you care. –   19:45, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

RightAngle: There is a tab on this page for starting a new section. In monobook it's called "+", which makes it easy to overlook. In vector (though in most respects I loathe vector) it's called "Add topic". --Pi zero (talk) 19:46, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * On WP it's called 'new section' in monobook unless you shorten it to '+' in your preferences. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 03:02, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a simple matter to change it in the interface if so desired. – Adrignola talk 03:29, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

WJ:Particles (again)
Hi! I have just finished the book, and I would like more people to read and comment on it. A thorough copy-edit would also be greatly appreciated. I want it to become a featured book. :) Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 15:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

POVs in Cookbooks
Cookbooks always contain POVs like 'tasty', 'delicious', etc, including featured ones. Should they all be removed? Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 06:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * A cookbook often describes what something tastes like, what the texture feels like, what the smell is like, and what to look for in order to understand when a stage of a recipe is complete or ready. Wikibooks' NPOV policy already allows books to include a limited amount of POVs. I think the Cookbook is a good example of where some limited POVs is needed in order to teach. Use of words like "tasty" and "delicious" may already be an attempt to be neutral, but do so at the cost of failing to be usefully descriptive. More descriptive words that help people learn what to expect are less likely to be neutral. I think if people tried to be any more neutral, the Cookbook would end up stating the obvious like "Salt tastes salty" (oh really?), and would still fail to provide useful descriptions that can be used to learn what to expect when tasting, testing the texture, when smelling a recipe, and what the product should look like. I think in those instances accuracy over neutrality is preferable. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  10:12, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This is why it is problematic hosting subprojects under existing projects. Just as Wikijunior has encountered some conflicts with site policy, the Cookbook is as well. – Adrignola talk 12:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * A cookbook isn't a textbook at all... The cookbook as a whole should, in my opinion, be structured as a guide to cooking, with the recipes as examples to practice the techniques. In other words "Cookbook" should be "Guide to Cooking and Cooking Techniques". To a large degree it has this structure - with technique, equipment and ingredient pages - but the emphasis is always on adding more recipes, not more techniques, and the recipes don't link to the instructional content properly. A few overarching pages could be added that provided a narrative to guide the reader through the techniques and recipes in a structured way. I've often fancied giving this a go, but it's a big job and I'd want consensus on this being a better way of doing it. <font color="#E66C2C">QU <font color="#306754">TalkQu 12:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Problem with external link
If you click on this text, it brings you to a 404 page. If you click on 'go' in your browser without changing the URL, you can get straight to the t interactive quiz. Why is that? Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 07:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That's pretty weird. I would guess it has something to do with the way the page is handled at the hosting site.  Maybe they have bad code that checks the referrer.  As an experiment, I pasted the link into a web page on my laptop using this html:

<a href=http://ryanlai.t35.com/stuff/otherstuff/WB1.swf>T35</a>
 * That also produced a 404. I think it's a problem on their end. Looking at the source html in that page shows that the 404 error is indeed encoded in some of the css.  I don't know css well enough to try to decipher it though. --Jomegat (talk) 11:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This testing proves that the host is blocking requests to media files with an external site doing the referring. Note that there are no problems visiting http://ryanlai.t35.com from a link, viewing the file from any page on the site using it, or as you tried above, visiting it directly with no site referring.  This is done by webmasters in order to prevent "hotlinking" and it's something I do myself on mine. – Adrignola talk 12:11, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So I'm violating what they call 'netiquette' by linking there? I was just about to guess that it's something MediaWiki's doing to stop people from spamming. :) Interesting, though, that it does work for me on Chrome now, on this computer, but not on another, in Chrome. It doesn't work in IE on either computer. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:51, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I do have an html version though: http://ryanlai.t35.com/stuff/otherstuff/WB1.html. It works well. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 13:03, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Two questions
Hello folks! I am sorry to disturb you, but I have only two questions. The first: can we place here books or texts written in Scots. The second question: I have a translation from the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (I see there are here many delightful English translations of it), in Scots. Can I propose it to this wiki? Friendly, --El Translatore (talk) 16:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * This is an English language project. Unless you plan to include text written in Scots in a book teaching the language, then the answer to the first question is no.  Feel free to post previously-published public domain books and texts written in Scots at the appropriate Wikisource project, however.  A for the "Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam", keep in mind that we are not Wikisource and you cannot just paste in source documents and leave them.  Any posting of that sort would need to be accompanied by annotations to instruct the reader on its meaning.  See Annotated texts. – Adrignola talk 16:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Chinese Wikibooks
This is not important or anything, but the Chinese Wikibooks community is currently discussing to change its project name from Wikitextbooks to Wikibookhouse, to change things about namespaces and pseudo-namespaces and bookshelves, as well as its adminship discussion process. Feel free to drop by and share your thoughts. Thanks Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 06:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the Chinese Wikibooks still be Wikibooks? I take it this stems from the effort to represent "Wikibooks" in Chinese characters. – Adrignola talk 11:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * * chuckle* please let me explain. The Chinese Wikibooks is currently called Wikitextbooks (維基教科書), which is not so good because it's five characters long and does not represent the scope of the project accurately. So an admin suggested Wikibookhouse (維基書屋), which sounds nice and does not limit the scope to textbooks. If it is just Wikibooks, then it would be 維基書, which sounds like there's a book entitled Wikibook as there are no plurals in Chinese. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:03, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

On collapsing
The collapsing templates on Wikibooks does not work on IE8 at all. However, Wikipedia's collapsing works perfectly. I think Wikibooks should learn from Wikipedia and make drop-boxes that work on IE8. I am completely ignorant about the technical stuff involved. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 06:48, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The collapse code is maintained by Darklama. It was made before Wikipedia made theirs and it also has the opposite default state from Wikipedia's.  Now we have many templates using the local code and no way to truly know of all the instances where the CSS class is used even if we wanted to change it out.  The class used here is the exact same one used at Wikipedia, so we can't leave it in place and add the classes used at Wikipedia either.  They work for me in IE8, however.  If you are making one from scratch, you need to be aware that the default state is collapsed when using <tt>class="collapsible"</tt> and that it expands only when using <tt>class="collapsible selected"</tt>.  This differs from Wikipedia, where <tt>class="collapsible"</tt> has a default state of expanded and <tt>class="collapsible collapsed"</tt> yields a collapsed state. – Adrignola talk 12:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I just cleared the cache on the RFD page, and it seems that the collapsing is working again. However, the hide/show button isn't working too well. I clicked on the show button on the GlobalTwitcher.com nomination multiple times, and it didn't work at all. Then I tried the mass page creation nomination, which worke d right away. I clicked the GlobalTwitcher.com nomination again, and it still didn't work. This is probably IE's fault and not MW's, though. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:17, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I checked it out and can confirm the behavior you report. That is another collapsing template variation.  The code I mentioned above is for tables.  The closed template is using a div with the deprecated <tt>class="NavFrame"</tt> (though that runs counter to those who prefer divs to tables for formatting/layout).  Quite confusing, certainly, with two classes used in two different situations to produce the same effect, with that effect in either situation not what you'd expect coming from Wikipedia.  I notice that a change was recently made to the hide/show link that may have fixed it for tables but broke it on divs.  The div variation is also broken for Firefox, so we can't blame it on IE. – Adrignola talk 12:30, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I switched to chrome and clicked on the buttons on the RFD page. Worked perfectly, as usual. Then I cleared the cache, and got the same problem as Fx and IE. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:43, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I undid my last change since it seemed to have break things rather than fixed IE8. I really need to get WINE working so I can see the problems in other web browsers for myself. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  14:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Knots
I would appreciate some feedback from those who are trying to make some of these knots for the first time. What could be explained better? Is the structure of the book confusing? —Internoob (Disc·Cont·Wikt) 17:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I would like to see the main page have a better table of contents, with non linking headings, with all the pages orginized under the knot category headings, like it's been done at the Blender_3D:_Noob_to_Pro book. Pearts (talk) 00:55, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that approach won't work for Knots. There are too many knots, and the book will almost certainly never be complete, so structuring the contents like Blender 3D: Noob to Pro would not be practical. But I do agree that the main page could use some work, so I did an overhaul. —Internoob (Disc·Cont·Wikt) 23:32, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The Parents, Teachers, Friends Testing Guide for Dummies
'For Dummies' is a registered trademark. Kayau ( talk &#124; email &#124; contribs ) 12:54, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Trademarks have to be enforced. If the Wikimedia Foundation receives a cease and desist, they can rename the book. The books on Windows, Mac OS, Adobe Flash, Gmail, etc. all use terms that are trademarked. – Adrignola talk 13:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)