Wikibooks:Reading room/Archives/2004/December

Bug : 5-inclusion template limit
It seems templates are still broken. See Music:Scales and Intervals... I use decided to templates for sharps and flats, which point to and, so I need only type ♯ or ♭ and I get the glyph. This works fine for most of the page, but it breaks inexplicably somewhere near the bottom. - Furrykef 21:38, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * It turns out it's the 5-inclusion limit, which I didn't know about. I think the limit is silly (there are other ways of detecting infinite recursion), but I guess unless I fix the code myself I'll have to just live with it. - Furrykef 23:01, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, I'm giving up. After having created Template:Flat7 I decided this silliness has gone on enough. Creating duplicate templates is far inadequate. But I think there really is no solution other than using templates. An appropriate message/complaint has been placed in Meta:Help_talk:Template. I can't do anything more for the music books until this has been fixed or I'm sufficiently convinced I'm doing things the wrong way; it wouldn't be the Right Thing. - Furrykef 23:37, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Furrykef, perhaps you should use # and b, since people who aren't using a graphical browser will not be able to read the image, and you don't have constraints with templates. The above will be guaranteed to work every time. I know it's not pretty, and you can mention in your book that this is just a temporary notatin. Dysprosia 03:23, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Could I not simply modify the template so that the "alt" text of the image would be "#" and "b"? - Furrykef 05:43, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Possibly, but then you're back to the inclusion problem again. Using straight HTML solves both problems. Dysprosia 09:51, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I still maintain that the templates should still work as expected in the first place. Then it would work whether the contents of the template were an image or # or whatever. - Furrykef 15:14, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * The 5 inclusion limit is not for infinite recursion, but for attacks where you can stuff the template full and then you end up creating a large page which might overload the servers. Dysprosia 04:07, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Would such attacks magically become easier if it were a 25 inclusion limit? - Furrykef 04:16, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. You'd have to ask a developer probably for more details on this, or submit it as a bug/RFE at sourceforge. Dysprosia 04:51, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * My own bet is that this was implemented fairly quickly without much checking to find this out. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 14:51, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Actually, I do remember discussion related to these sort of attacks. That is why the limit was introduced. Dysprosia 23:39, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I posted a very angry note about it on my Wikipedia user page. It seems no matter what kind of sound and fury I make, I don't get the slightest sign anything is going to be done about it. I repeat, I WILL NOT CONTRIBUTE to Wikibooks until this is fixed. (A stupid fix I did a few minutes ago notwithstanding, since it was -- you guessed it -- fixing a template error.) - Furrykef 08:04, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Maybe you should go and do something about it, then. I'll even post the links here for you to do so: create account, enter bug Dysprosia 11:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I had already submitted it as a bug quite some time ago, and it got closed as a "known issue". - Furrykef 00:21, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Then I doubt you're going to see it get fixed. Dysprosia 00:49, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)
 * Whatever happened to the other solutions? Do you have to use images to show this? Why do you need templates to show the sharps and flats? Can't you just use the images? I edited the page in question to do this, and it works fine. - SamE 14:53, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * The template syntax is a lot cleaner. Also I pointed out we could insert "alt tags" into the template or modify it in other ways and we wouldn't have to change every single little instance. I'm also going to revert the page because I have it as an example of what a mess the limit is, and people aren't going to see what I mean if it doesn't use templates. :) Moreover, the templates should be working in the first place. To force me to use a workaround just because the developers are too lazy to fix brain damage (I'm sorry, that's what it is) is not the Right Thing because it does nothing to discourage fixing it. - Furrykef 00:21, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Who cares about the syntax? There are many times where the average non-programmer wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of the syntax; see the Main Page for example. I don't program, and when I was fixing it up, it would take up to 20 previews to get it right. A simple image isn't going to confuse anybody. - SamE 15:05, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It's not that the developers are lazy - there is a good reason for limiting it as I have said before. Why don't you go on IRC or something and find/talk to a developer in person? Dysprosia 00:49, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It has been pointed out in various places (Meta:Help_talk:Template and the page it links to) that the include limit probably does not help prevent DoS attacks or even make them harder. As for taking it to IRC, I might do that, thanks. Sorry if I sound unreasonable, but the benefits (which I personally feel do not even exist) are far outweighed by the problems, and it really irritates me that it appears nobody cares. ~sigh~ Maybe I should take a few days away from WikiMedia in general before I make an ass of myself even more. I'm not usually like this. :/ But I'd have thought a complaint I registered almost a month ago would have been noticed by now. - Furrykef 01:01, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * It was noticed! The bug was closed as a "known issue". Laziness on the developers' side is not the problem. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 18:11, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * What was acknowledged by that is that the problem exists, which is already obvious to everybody. That answers nothing for me. - Furrykef 08:03, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It is fixed now: ♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭♭--Patrick 10:35, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Navigation
I would like to see a link at the bottom of each section of the books that allows the reader to go on to the next section of the book without having to return to the contents page each time. Or the contents could be listed in a sidebar.


 * Wikibooks here vary so much, you should leave a comment on the talk page of the Wikibook you have a problem with, not here. - SamE 01:08, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * You can do this very simply by making a Table of Contents template for your Wikibook. I first saw it used in the Botany text, and a sidebar implementation can be found at the Paleoanthropology text. I made my own thinned-down navigation bar for Chinese. Just edit the template page to make changes for all pages using it. -- 19:41, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chinese spams
I wish for you to please block the IP range of the IP 221.196.11.2, for multiple vandalisms (random web page links, i think the term is phishing?) to pages, albeit under different, but similar IPs (they all begin in 221.xxx.xx.x[x]). I recommend, respectfully, that it be blocked for no less than 4 months, if not indefinately.

Evidence:
 * 221.196.11.2
 * 221.197.22.1
 * 221.197.20.66
 * 222.47.73.35
 * 222.47.73.51
 * 218.85.209.33
 * 202.74.184.202

(These are just what I know about and can easily prove.) User:Naryathegreat & User:Mkn
 * These are blocked for 24 h. Please sign your comments. Yann 08:41, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * This is an continuing problem. Range blocks have been imposed in the past, but that only slows the spammer down, it doesn't stop him.  The main problem is that the spammer is using dynamic IP addresses from one of the largest ISPs in Mainland China. Other suspect IPs include those in the 218.xxx.xxx.xxx range. The problem has been identified at Vandalism in progressGentgeen 08:40, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ti help fighting spam, there is now a IRC channel showing RC: #enrc.wikibooks. Yann 13:04, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * They've even spammed my own Talk page O_o--Boit 07:51, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Yep he apparently spams every page that has recently be edited. We just have to watch recent changes like hawks and revert as soon as we can.Does google index our history pages? if it does, they should probably be told about this. Theresa knott 16:22, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * In Wikipedia, Google only crawls and indexes current versions of pages, I'd guess it's the same here, and for other spiders. Andrewa 17:34, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Maybe my following proposal sounds a bit radical, but this chinese spammer is really getting on my nerves. I have no idea how practical this would be to implement, anywho: '''PROPOSAL: Any obviously good-faith User can apply for a "sub-admin" account, who's only power is to be able to impose 12 hour bans on annonymous IPs for the sole purpose of fighting vandalism. This power can be stripped without warning by any admin if it is abused.''' I think this is needed here because unlike wikipedia we dont yet have a strong RC patrol, and this needs quick and decisive action. The bellman 08:06, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * We just got a new tool from the developers that tracks the edits of IPs across all the wikis, so hopefully, this will make catching this spammer faster because it won't be only us doing it anymore (his latest IP vandalized wiktionary, too). Admins, check out Special:FindSpam (you must be an admin to use this tool, sorry), and then thank Tim Starling for the new spam fighting toy. Gentgeen 08:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

New Chinese link spams coming from 221.197.18.150 - Everlong 07:25, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * They dont only use 221.xxx.xx.x:


 * * 60.25.127.208


 * --Krischik 09:02, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I am not sure if this piece of information is already propagated to this project, but in case not, -

When you find spam, that cannot be dealt with blocking effectively, you can report it at a page on meta: meta:Talk:Spam_blacklist. Developers will review the reports and blacklist URLs if necessary so that any edit that includes blacklisted URL is prevented from being saved. Tomos 10:55, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Removing books from the marked for deletion list
I'm interested in reviving the Open Source book, and changing it into a book about the history and philoshpy of the open source movement. The book has been listed for deletion of over 2 months. What (if any) procedure is there for removing such books from the list of books marked for deletion (should I just do it and get working?)? I dont' want the current content deleted, some of it can be saved for the new project, but I don't want to start working and have it deleted while I work, or upset people by removing things from the deletion list.

--Ahc 03:19, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * be bold The bellman 10:04, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

School science experiments
Recently found some pages (very nicely done) which don't really belong on WP, but would be good added to Biology, Chemistry, and Physics here. I could use some help though, finding people who could transwiki them here, and put them in the right place. Take a look at School science experiment for the pages related to this. -- Netoholic 08:52, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

LaTeX source material to Wikibooks
I have been asked to create a wikibook format of material that is currently sourced in LaTeX. The books are both physics and maths. Does anybody know of an efficient way to convert these to wiki text? Specifically problematic would be the images that they create. I have not yet seen the Math textbook, which I hope will use standard TeX markup - which I know Wikimedia can work with.

The Physics books has images like the following in the LaTeX: \begin{figure}[H] \htmlfigure \begin{center} \begin{pspicture}(0,0)(8,2) \cnode[fillstyle=crosshatch](3.6,1){.4}{mycircle} \psline{<-}(1,1)(3,1) \rput(2,0.6){$\momen_3$, $\kener_3$} \cnode[fillstyle=hlines](4.4,1){.4}{mycircle2} \psline{<-}(7,1)(5,1) \rput(6, 0.6){$\momen_4$, $\kener_4$} \end{pspicture}

and

\begin{equation} \label{eq:pc:types:elast:after:K} \kener_\mathrm{After} = \kener_3+\kener_4 \end{equation}

If it is not possible to convert these to TeX markup I would need to load hundreds of png images up to Wikibooks. If this is the case, is there an automated way of loading many (small) images simultaneously ?

Thanks --Riaan 07:24, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Does anybody have any ideas on how to do this? Seems like I will have to include the png files (as in the topmost : example) but how about these equations? All help greatly appreciated.

--Riaan 11:49, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to replace modules?
There is a module in Wikibooks which I consider to have addressed the topic so poorly that it would be better off completely replaced with new text. Is it appropriate to do so, or would that be a breach of wikiquette?

--203.113.235.149 12:19, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * [[User:Mkn|Mkn (Talk)]] 12:51, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC) Which module are you refering to? If it's an urgent matter and you can improve the content then go ahead. If the author reverts or someone else complains then use the discussion tab.

I'm concerned about the Artificial Intelligence module. Its stated goal is to serve as "an unbiased article that forces the reader to think whether or not AI is really what society needs" but it seems to me that the bulk of the module is either biased against AI or off on a tangent, and that a lot of it reads awkwardly. I was going to modify it accordingly, but that would mean replacing well over half of the text. I'm a complete n00b, and I'd like to help but I don't want to do the wrong thing. Thanks.
 * I should think that Wikibooks is not an appropriate forum for soapbox diatribes. An article on AI should provide information on AI. While it might well be appropriate to have a chapter on societal implications, that can not be the only POV in the book. You would not be out of line to modify substantially or to remove POV ("biased against") that is unencyclopedic ("off on a tangent"). Same rules here as at Wikipedia in my mind. - marsh 05:22, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Of course POV should be allowed for books, specifically because they are not encyclopedia entries. The last book I read without a POV was a long time agao. It just sounds like the title should be changed to The Negative Societal Impacts of AI. Right there sounds like something you'd find in a bookstore. (Because it's bad to make a book sound like a textbook when it isn't. A title change should cover it.) I'd say instead to feel free to fork and do all of the writing you want. The more the merrier. MShonle 16:20, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

--203.113.235.149 13:59, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How to use greek letters delta, rho, etc?
I'm adding some formulas to my ComputerScience:Distributed Systems book and I need to know how to make the Greek letters delta and rho and probably a bunch more.
 * $$\rho + \delta\cdot\Delta = \tau$$ Just spell the greek letter out with a \ before it. Make the first letter uppercase or lowercase depending. MShonle 18:57, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

IRC
Hi,

There is now a channel #wikibooks on irc.freenode.net Yann 11:29, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Listening Tank
I am planning a listening tank for foreign language learners. not specifying yet, and need everyone's help! hope someone would be interested in helping. any suggestion are very much welcome. --Yacht 02:23, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

hello

i got a link here from the wiki main site...the link was for an ebook on guitars but i got a lot of error code.

see below:

config/LocalSettings.php to the parent directory.\n" ); } else { die( "You'll have to set the wiki up first!" ); } } # Valid web server entry point, enable includes. # Please don't move this line to includes/Defines.php. This line essentially defines # a valid entry point. If you put it in includes/Defines.php, then any script that includes # it becomes an entry point, thereby defeating its purpose. define( "MEDIAWIKI", true ); require_once( "./includes/Defines.php" ); require_once( "./LocalSettings.php" ); require_once( "includes/Setup.php" ); wfProfileIn( "main-misc-setup" ); OutputPage::setEncodings; # Not really used yet # Query string fields $action = $wgRequest->getVal( "action", "view" ); $title = $wgRequest->getVal( "title" ); $action = strtolower( trim( $action ) ); if ($wgRequest->getVal( "printable" ) == "yes") { $wgOut->setPrintable; } if ( "" == $title && "delete" != $action ) { $wgTitle = Title::newFromText( wfMsgForContent( "mainpage" ) ); } elseif ( $curid = $wgRequest->getInt( 'curid' ) ) { # URLs like this are generated by RC, because rc_title isn't always accurate $wgTitle = Title::newFromID( $curid ); } else { $wgTitle = Title::newFromURL( $title ); } wfProfileOut( "main-misc-setup" ); # Debug statement for user levels // print_r($wgUser); # If the user is not logged in, the Namespace:title of the article must be in # the Read array in order for the user to see it. (We have to check here to # catch special pages etc. We check again in Article::view) if ( !is_null( $wgTitle ) && !$wgTitle->userCanRead ) { $wgOut->loginToUse; $wgOut->output; exit; } wfProfileIn( "main-action" ); $search = $wgRequest->getText( 'search' ); if( !is_null( $search ) && $search !== '' ) { require_once( 'includes/SpecialSearch.php' ); $wgTitle = Title::makeTitle( NS_SPECIAL, "Search" ); wfSpecialSearch; } else if( !$wgTitle or $wgTitle->getDBkey == "" ) { $wgTitle = Title::newFromText( wfMsgForContent( "badtitle" ) ); $wgOut->errorpage( "badtitle", "badtitletext" ); } else if ( $wgTitle->getInterwiki != "" ) { $url = $wgTitle->getFullURL; # Check for a redirect loop if ( !preg_match( "/^". preg_quote( $wgServer, "/" ). "/", $url ) && $wgTitle->isLocal ) { $wgOut->redirect( $url ); } else { $wgTitle = Title::newFromText( wfMsgForContent( "badtitle" ) ); $wgOut->errorpage( "badtitle", "badtitletext" ); } } else if ( ( $action == "view" ) && (!isset( $_GET['title'] ) || $wgTitle->getPrefixedDBKey != $_GET['title'] ) &&  !count( array_diff( array_

yikes!

sean shh@pobox.com

Computer science namespaces
Some of the CS texts are in Programming while others are in Computer_science while still others are in ComputerScience. Can we agree upon some name (Like Computer_Science) and put all of the book in that namespace? (Note, some books really are about programming, and not about computer science, so they should remain separate.) I don't know what the protcol here is, as I don't want to make anyone's watch list out of date. MShonle 18:33, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * This should probably be mentioned at Wikibooks talk:Namespaces. Go ahead and standardize on a name -- no one's watchlist will be out of date as long as you use the "move" function and don't copy and paste stuff from one page to another.  If I am watching Article A and you move it to Title B, Article B is automatically placed on my watchlist. TUF-KAT 02:22, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks! I've standardized on the name "Computer_Science". MShonle 03:01, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Underlined links
OK, I realize that I might be the only one, but I got used to not having links underlined when the software was being shaken up, and now that it's settled, that's my preference. As I started editing today, something went wrong and the links keep getting underlined, despite what my preferences page says. I've done the whole refresh thing with the preferences, and it's worked before, but now it just turns back in a matter of seconds. Can someone help? - SamE 11:19, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * edit your css file to include " a { text-decoration:none; }" Gentgeen 07:55, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * For an example see my css file. Gentgeen 07:57, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Main page vandalized
The main page has been vandalized. I don't know how to revert a page to its previous version (short of cutting and pasting the entire previous version as a new version, which doesn't seem right), so someone else will have to fix it. &mdash; franl (talk) 20:14, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, I read the Help:Contents page and fixed the vandalism by reverting to the previously non-vandalized version. &mdash; franl (talk) 20:18, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * At what point do we decide that the main page is too valuable to allow casual vandalism to disrupt it and therefore we lock it down (as I believe Wikipedia's main page is locked)? &mdash; franl (talk) 20:24, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)