Wikibooks:Reading room/Administrative Assistance/Archives/2007/September

Dewey Decimal Classification
Is there any particular reason we're not deleting everything related to Wikibooks use of it? Seems like a copyright violation oversight to me, as the DDC is copyrighted and requires requesting a license to use it. --dark lama  17:55, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What I gather from that website (in confirmation of information i've heard before) is that we may use the DDC system to organize materials, but we would require a license to use the webdewey database, and to get more detailed guides. What we are doing here, assigning only top-level numbers to our books in a rudimentary way, doesnt appear to be a copyvio. I would like to see some concrete information to the contrary before we start any mass page deletions. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 21:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Where from the website does it say that DDC can be used freely? I could only find a reference to the need to request a license if you want to use it without any mention of a license request being limited to the webdewey database or to more detailed guides. I think the fact the DDC is copyrighted is concrete enough, I don't think there is a need to prove its a copyvio, since its copyrighted, but rather there is need to prove that it isn't, such as some indication that Wikibooks can freely use it under the terms of the GFDL from the website itself. --dark lama  12:53, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The website does not say that it can be used freely, but likewise it does not say that it cannot be. The website says that a license is required to access the webdewey database. The OCLC (the parent group that owns the DDC system) maintains a database of all published books and their corresponding Dewey classification numbers. That list is copyright, and we are not using that list. Keep in mind that the books we have are not previously published, therefore do not have "official" dewey numbers, do not appear in the database, and so we don't need to interact with it. If it were a gigantic problem, we could go through a switch from dewey to the Universal Decimal Classification, which is similar to Dewey but not copyright (and more useful). --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 14:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * My concern is not with the database or book list, but with the copyright status of the classification system itself. Wikibooks, Wikipedia and the OCLC website all seem to suggest that the classification system is copyrighted. The OCLC website also says on the bottom of every page copyright 2007 OCLC Online Computer Library Center. If Wikibooks is to use this sort of classification system (I don't see the point really, but thats a separate discussion) and UDC is indeed not copyrighted, I think UDC needs to replace DDC. --dark lama  16:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We can consider making some kind of transition, that would be perfectly fine to me. It would seem that we should be supporting free alternatives over proprietary ones in either case. I don't think that we need to rush to delete anything, because i'm still not convinced that we are violating any copyright. What I am going to start to do is create a series of subject-templates, such as or, what Rob created to help sort out the various CS books. Once these templates are created and applied to pages, we can change what's inside these templates without having to go back and recategorize hundreds of books. Once that's implemented, switching from DDC to UDC will be easy and completely transparent. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 22:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been looking over the UDC information in preparation to actually implement it, and I can't help but feel that this system isn't any better then the DDC is. Specifically, it doesnt provide any better resolution for the kinds of books that we have the most of (technology, science, and computing) then the DDC did. what we end up with is a whole mishmash of books crammed into "000", and very few books in the remaining categories. Going through the effort to switch classification systems, without any kind of net gain for the project seems like a waste to me. I don't feel like a transition from the DDC system to the UDC system is really practical, especially not without some kind of proof that our use of the DDC system here violates copyright. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 16:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * If the DDC is copyrighted, its a violation of copyright to use it if permission was not granted to make use of it. This is the same if contents were copied from a book or a website without any sort of indication that it can be freely used. --dark lama  17:06, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Mortgageboard
I think this should not have been deleted, let alone protected from re-creation. It does have potential for its own module, and isn't spam. Can we take this to VfD when a new article is created?? --72.189.79.44 20:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No time but extreme caution. Probably vandal related (hence the protection), my talk page has some info!  Seeking information but access is not good for a day or so.  Above IP may well be open.  Cheers -- Herby  talk thyme 12:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Based on the previous text of this page (prior to deletion), I almost cna't think of a way that this material will fit into Wikibook's inclusion criteria. If it's been protected from recreation, that's because it's been abused repeatedly in the past. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 21:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Both times that page was created it was spam. If you want to create a module by that name, please give us an outline of what you're going to put there; if it's suitable for WB, we could unprotect the page.  – Mike.lifeguard  | talk 21:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:AWBUser
I imported this template from WP and (hopefully) changed it so the links apply to WB instead of WP. It might be useful if you want to see lots of info about a user, such as for WB:RFA. It gives links to User page, talk, contribs, edit count by namespace, total edits, logs, page moves, block log, email. Here is an example.  – Mike.lifeguard  | talk 16:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Log in problems
Help- I can't stay logged in- I can log in intially, but then I get logged out when I go to another page- I have Hughes.net sattellite internet service and I have allowed maximimu cookies. I read something about PHP settings- but this is a foreign language to me.

I need this for a college course and I am very frustrated- please advise how I can stay logged on! Thanks Sarah Smarrelli ssmar002@odu.edu


 * At the log in page, under where you enter your username and password there is a box labelled "Keep me signed in" (or similar). Check that box, then click log in. As long as your browser has cookies enabled, you'll stay logged in. If you need to enable cookies, either refer to the help files for your browser or ask us here.  – Mike.lifeguard  | talk 18:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * thanks for the note- I have checked the "keep me logged in box" and I am still getting logged off- when I go from one chapter to the next- any other ideas?


 * I can't imagine any reason that should happen. Perhaps one of the computer science folks could come up with something. The only thing I can think of is that your cookies are not enabled. Try putting en.wikibooks.org on your safe websites list. What browser are you using? Also, it seems like you're using multiple IP addresses? Every time you ask about this issue it's from a different IP. Please try to keep the query in one place - this is fine; we'll reply to you here.  – Mike.lifeguard  | talk 12:08, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks again Mike- I don't why it shows a different IP address- I'm on the same PC with same wiki log-in name/password. When I go to wikibooks, I am automatically logged on, so something happens when I go from page to page???? I have put wiki in my trusted sites, accepted all cookies, taken off my firewall, I'm at wits end! Thanks
 * How do I get in touch with a wiki techie? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.37 (talk • contribs).


 * You should wait for someone with more technical know-how than me to reply. One of the other admins should be able to help. For now, you'll be able to both view and edit pages, you just won't be logged in.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 14:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * You might try a different browser. If you are using Internet Explorer, try using Firefox. (Or visa versa.) -- xixtas talk 16:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Login is managed by using cookies in your browser. If you are being logged out when you go to a different website, it's likely because your browser is deleting the old cookies. Check your browser settings to ensure that your browser is set to accept cookies and to keep them until "they expire". What browser are you using? What version? --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 17:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

staying logged in is the problem
thanks to all who are trying to help me! It's got to be a problem with my Hughes net connection or the settings they have set up. I have tried firefox and even created an entire new account and still I can log in initially with no problems but when I go the "browse" or another page within wikibooks I get logged off. Any more ideas? Thanks! Sarah


 * I really have to disagree with you, the internet connection really shouldn't be the problem in this instance. The act of logging in and staying logged in are managed by communication between the server and your browser, communication which Hughes doesn't participate in. The majority of the "action" happens in your browser in creating and maintaining a cookie. Cookies store information that says "I am logged in to this website". Cookies are the most likely culprit if you are logging in and being logged out prematurely.
 * If it's not cookies, then it must be caching. For performance reasons, various stages in the website-delivery pipeline store older versions of a page so that when you request it, you can get the page more quickly. What could be happening, if cookies are not the problem, is that you may be looking at an older "cached" version of the page, a version that shows you not being logged in. To try and clear the cache, try performing a hard-reset (CTRL+F5 in IE or FireFox). This will reload the page from scratch, attempting to bypass all local caching. Another option to try would be to open up your browser options (it's different in IE and various versions of FireFox) and try some of the following: Clear the browser history, clear the cache, increase the amount of memory for the cache, or increase the longevity of cookies (keep them "until they expire").
 * Also, make sure that your browser has javascript installed and functional. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 01:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Whiteknight- these are some new things for me to try, and I'll let you know if they work!


 * If you have a DW6000/DW7000/HN7x00S try this: disable Hughes Web Acceleration Proxy. -- xixtas  talk 12:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

New list of admins
I created a new list of admins (I think we were missing some) and used to show mostly the same stuff as AWBUser did.


 * OK. It was broken for a while there. I dunno if you guys like having the whole screen filled with links, so if not, don't leave it as is. I just thought it could be useful to have easy access to a log of admin actions. If nothing else, the list is up-to-date now.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 15:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually some of the missing people you added are stewards. This is why I had a list of stewards with admin access here. To prevent this sort of confusion. However it was deleted and replaced with a link to a list of stewards instead. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  15:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes - please keep stewards & non en wb folk separate - just confuses folk who may be looking for someone to help, template is fine tho (IMO) -- Herby talk thyme 15:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 15:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

New pages
I know RC patrolling isn't that popular here but a look through new pages suggests to me that there are a few almost certainly outside scope (I've only skimmed the last 24 hours). I've no time to do more at present I'm afraid, sorry -- Herby talk thyme 14:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Unblock requests
Is there any way to be notified when a page is added to the category "unblock requested" or whatever it's called? If you watch the category: page, you'd see changes to the page, but not when pages are added/removed from the page. I guess the solution for now is to monitor the category manually.

PS: IP User Talk:84.45.219.185 wants to be unblocked. Herby requested that nobody unblock them without consulting a CU. The CUs are hereby consulted.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 17:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Mike, you might want to look at the deleted edits from that page... repeated unblock requests with creative excuses is just this person's way of trolling. I can also confirm that unblocking that IP pretty much guarantees that more vandal accounts will be created.
 * Personally, I think we should just protect that talk page for 6 months or so. -- SB_Johnny | PA! 18:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * [edit conflict] Substantial history of vandal accounts across wikis. I'm in consultation with other CUs (at a guess that will be a dozen appeals on this wiki alone) - I think Johnny has experienced the IP on Wikiversity too.  As far as I know there is no way to watch a category here.  I could ask Bryan who runs a category watch bot on Commons (might be useful for other cats?)? -- Herby  talk thyme 18:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I was just about to send you a mail about that, HT :). -- SB_Johnny | PA! 18:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Plenty on the list - some of it serious! Varying opinion with the varying reason for unblock. They tried it for two weeks on en wp and then blocked it again! -- Herby  talk thyme 18:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean that they should be unblocked; quite the contrary. I just haven't found any reliable way to monitor unblock requests (that they are a tad rare here doesn't help - it's easy to forget to check every so often), and figured others may not have either.
 * A "category watch bot" might be useful, but we might consider just adding to the "help cleanup" page a section for administrative cleanup. So deletions, unblock requests, WB:VIP (if we're keeping it; WK wanted to redirect to WB:AN. I don't know if that discussion died or something...), WB:RFI... could all be in one of those rows - things that only/mostly admins take care of. And then we'd keep the stuff that non-admins can do in the other rows. At least it'd be a reminder to the admins collectively to check those things every so often.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 18:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
 * A bot that makes a page edit every time there is a change to a category would be a great boon to us, and not just to this issue either. You're right that it's too difficult to have to watch all sorts of categories, especially categories that don't change too frequently. Having that information automatically compiled and delivered to us would save a lot of energy, and we would only have to do tasks that actually need doing. Of course, i'm pretty much pro-bot, I would be thrilled if we had 100 bots on here doing all sorts of automated tasks (including deletions). --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 21:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * @WK: I am too. I was going to ask you to flag yourself the other day when you were doing... something. But then you stopped.
 * @Herby: Do you mind asking about that? Even if we want to discuss it more, having some basic info about the bot would be useful in terms of deciding.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 21:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Because it's so easy to give and remove bot flags (a bureaucrat can do both, it's the only "privledge" that our bcrats can take away), i see it as more of a temporary measure. We give bot flags when a bot is messing up the RC list, and we take botflags away when they aren't needed. That way, the list of users with a bot flag represent the "active" bots at any time (as opposed to the "potential" bots). of course, that's an interpretation that we havent really discussed, and so i'm not going to be giving the bot flag to myself or to any other person on a needs-basis without discussion first. Of course, bot's are a new phenomina here, and as our use of them becomes more sophisticated, we will probably change our methods for dealing with them. If the community does not disagree with the issue, we could maybe create a list of people who are allowed to receive the bot flag if they are doint bot-like work, on a temporary basis. If people agree to that, next time i want to go on a categorization rampage i could give myself the flag first. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 21:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Not looking for a bot flag account (Bryan's bot is not flagged anyway & I would prefer it that way. To Mike - what info would you like - it has been running fine on Commons (you list a category & it lists any additions to it).  Think it may be running on en wp.  It's kinda like the one that brought me easily back here (Administrators' discussion index.  I'll look some more & get back to you? -- Herby  talk thyme 14:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it wouldn't need to be flagged - the categories we'd want to watch aren't updated that often. Really the only thing I wanted to know is if it can do what we want (check) and runs well (check). I'm happy with that - let's figure out how to get it up and running.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 14:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Bryan's bot runs every 2/3 hours IIRC so that would be the update interval. As soon as it is working again on Commons I'll let you know - cheers -- Herby  talk thyme 15:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know why i didnt think of this earlier, but we can use DPL to keep a list of pages that are put into maintenance categories. DPL shows pages in order according to the time they were added to the category, so the newest pages added show up on the top. We can restrict the count to only 10 or so pages to appear in the list. I have a proof of concept up at my Sandbox that shows this. Of course, we dont get a notification on our watchlist when a page is updated, but if we put this on a page we were looking at anyway, we could see changes immediately. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 15:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Neat. I started Bryan's category bot going but I think I may have done something wrong - I've asked on his talk page. -- Herby talk thyme 15:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeay - works - User:Herbythyme/Categories! I'll put it on a "public" page tomorrow.  Anything anyone want to add? -- Herby  talk thyme 15:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Added Category:Wikibooks protected edit requests  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 16:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Connell66
This user just vandalized my talk page; I blocked the account for 1 week. They've been permanently banned from en.wp - shall we follow suit in whole or in part?  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 00:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * We followed in whole - user is blocked indefinitely.  – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  | <font color="Indigo">talk 00:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Problem users
I would like to delete this page, or else mark it as being historical and protect it from being edited. We really don't need it, and I dont know that we've used it at all in my entire time as a Wikibookian. People who are problematic are typically blocked, and we have so few cases that it's almost not worth mentioning. Posting a name on a list like that really seems like more of an ad hominem attack anyway, which is not likely to help resolve any conflicts. Ideally, I would like to delete this page and replace it with a redirect to the administrator's noticeboard. That way, if there are problems, the admins know about it. Most admins, i'm sure, dont even watch the problem users page anyway, so it's moot. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 19:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, go ahead and delete it and redirect it here. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  19:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I also agree. Urbane   (Talk)   (Contributions)  19:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be proper to mark it to VfD if you have any doubts. My vote would be for delete (doesn't provide any useful historic information besides Wikibooks organizational evolution). --Panic 21:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and deleted it and redirected it here, its never really been used, more reverts then anything. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  22:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Licensing
I have made some changes to list of available licenses for file uploads. First of all, I have introduced version 3 of Creative Commons license (as the Wikipedia has done). I have also removed game-screenshot template, as we do not allow game manuals here. Finally, I have removed an option to choose only GFDL license or only Creative Commons license for own works. Both options are very bad, as GFDL makes printing an image nearly impossible and Creative Commons licenses are sometimes unconvenient: with GFDL text+GFDL images, you only attach text of GFDL license once when you print all; with GFDL text+CC images, you have to write about every variant of CC license. And more important: it's impossible (at least up to my knowledge) to take a free-licensed screenshot of page containing GFDL text with CC images. --Derbeth talk 09:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a few that I noticed were missing and included some that will add to the page if used. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark  lama  17:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

java css files
I notice when I create a new accout that there is some mention of java and css files to customize my wikibooks- could these settings help me? of course, I can reference this file because when I click on it- I get logged off. Hughes net proxy has been disabled so I'm still looking for a solution.

My staying logged in problem is solved
Oh my- my staying logged in problem is finally resolved- Hughes had to turn off "turbo page" at their location and then I had to restart my modem. Now I'm staying logged in.... but Hughes said this will slow down my web browsing, so we'll see what happens. THANKS to everyone who helped me- I can't believe no one else who has hughes service and uses wikibooks hasn't had a similar problem. At least the mystery is solved!

still can't stay logged in ;-(
Well- with turbopage off at the Hughes server, my PC was crippled so it's back on and I am still getting logged off of wikibooks. I tried to disable the web accelaration proxy based on instructions someone sent me, but it doesn't work so I'm still not having any luck- I just can't believe that Hughes can be causing me so much trouble- oh well....

im new and i need help, a lot of help!!!
i am looking for a group dynamics book for a class im currently in. I could not afford to buy the text for the class, so I did not. But our first test is in about three weeks, and I am taking all the class notes, but i sense she is going to test right from the book and I am afraid that I will not do well. I was hoping that you would have a book on here about intro to group communication, or intro to group dynamics, if anyone has any info on this subject please post it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bobbi ashley (talk • contribs).

Seeking wikibooks evangelist to speak at documentation conference
The WritersUA Conference for Software User Assistance would like to have wikibooks represented in the next event taking place March 16-19 in Portland, OR. The conference is for people charged with developing information in support of software. The conference is a great opportunity to recruit experienced writers for wikibooks. We are looking for someone to attend the conference to talk about wikibooks and describe the writing/editing process. The speaker would receive free registration to the conference and an honorarium to help offset expenses. Over 500 user assistance professionals will be in attendance. http://www.writersua.com/ohc/index.html. Contact Joe Welinske, jjw at writersua.com, Concrete14 09:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * A place where we could get up in front of a crowd of people and actually talk about Wikibooks? Recruit new authors? It's like a dream! Portland OR is a bit far away from me (Philly PA), but how often does an opportunity like this really come up? How many speakers could we send? just one, or a small group? How much is the registration expense? --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 12:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Echoing Whiteknight: Sounds great, but I can't afford to go :(. -- SB_Johnny | PA! 17:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see a registration fee, but exhibitors pay $495.00 without a booth, $995 with. BUT... Note that they will give one speaker free registration, plus an honorarium. We could send a group, but it would likely be one free, one either reduced rate or full rate... In any event, I'm within range, but I must discuss this with family and with User talk:PNW Raven, who is also within range. Chazz (talk) 00:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * It's beginning to look like I've been elected for this. Hmm. Portland is within range; PNW Raven says that he's in range also but has an infirm mother and that might hamper his chances at attending. I've started the passport process. Thing is, I need advice. Stranger as I am to public speaking... I need to garner some ideas about what I should talk about. Chazz (talk) 06:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm certainly interested in going myself. I'm talking to this person via email, we can likely get a reduced rate for additional Wikibookians, but it also appears they have a selection process for speakers. I.e. not just anybody can go. I'll post more information as I get it. Assuming we can get two people to attend, you want to be travel buddies Chazz? --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 02:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if I'd be an asset, frankly, as a second traveler. I am perhaps not the evangelist I could be... I'm not as passionate about things as many others here, and I have to think others would be much better able to support WB's point of view. Maybe we should discuss this more privately? Email is enabled in my profile. Oh -- and if you're looking at travel plans, I wouldn't advise looping up through Canada to get to Portland from PA. Save the border hassles for when you need to get up here. Chazz (talk) 19:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:nld
Is there any way to remove from the SD category? – <font color="Indigo">Mike.lifeguard  &#124; <font color="Indigo">talk 15:32, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * How do you mean, as in not showing nld images in the speedy delete category? Urbane   (Talk)   (Contributions)  17:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel like that would sort of defeat the purpose, unless you were proposing to use a different category that was specific to images instead. --Whiteknight (Page) (Talk) 18:02, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sure Mike meant removing the template from the SD category rather then the images and thats now been done. --<span style="font: bold 10pt 'courier new', comic, sans, ms;"><font color="midnightblue">dark lama  19:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)