User talk:Ferralangel

Thanks for your offer of help. I suggest that you read the draft proposal that needs to be sent to the Board of Directors. In my view, there are two things that need to be done at this time:

1) Finish drafting the proposal. I think what it still needs is something like a timeline with a description of what can be done in the short-term to get the project started and a discussion of where the project might go in the long run. The issue of courses and their role in Wikiversity has become a matter of conflict. I think that conflict can be resolved by making explicit what sorts of activities make sense for the immediate launch of the project and what goals need to be thought of as long-term possibilities for the community to work towards.

2) I think we should start work on a "demonstration project" without waiting for the Board to act. I think that the obvious place to start is with a project that would work to improve the process of citing sources within Wikipedia and which would also be related to an existing Wikibook project. Such a Wikiversity project would demonstrate how Wikiversity can function in an integrated fashion with other Wikimedia projects, would start to attract Wikiversity editors, and would be a starting point for building the Wikiversity infrastructure that will be needed to support scholarly learning projects in wiki format. The demo project I previously started attracted no attention. I suspect we need to pick a controversial topic that appeals to the interests of many people. An alternative would be to to construct a new main Wikiversity page at Meta, list a large number of topics for potential learning projects and let the community decide which one(s) to start with. --JWSurf 15:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

And now?
I went through and read the proposal as well as the various pages on discussion regarding wikiversity and its current stage. I am a little unclear however, on where it is in its development. Sometimes it seemed like it was faltering as far as becoming its own wiki and on other discussions it was apprently meeting approval and ready to be launched. Clearly, since we are still on wikibooks, it has not met with some final approval and requires some fine tuning. I am more than happy to help on any part that requires help. What stage do you feel the second part of the proposal is in? Is it just the beginning phases or is it near completion? Would it be helpful to begin work on another course to offer the board more examples as to what wikiversity has to offer? Feel free to point me in a direction and I am happy to work on that part. I just don't feel knowledgable enough yet regarding wikiversity past and present to offer concrete thoughts on what needs to be accomplished. Thanks Ferralangel 20:52, 18 April 2006 (UTC)ferralangel


 * It is always good to have a new set of eyes look at something. A major problem faced by Wikiversity is that it does not yet have a home and pages about it are scattered all over the place. We are trying to satisfy the requirements set by the Board:


 * "Wikiversity proposal (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiversity) not approved, but we will approve it if some changes are made and if the community seems joyful about it, which may or may not require another vote. The board recommend rewriting the proposal to exclude credentials, exclude online-courses and clarify the concept of elearning platform. to be rewritten to exclude credntials and to clarify concept of e-learning."

In my view, the major remaining problem is the requirement that "the community seems joyful" with the changes requested by the Board. Everyone's first impulse is to imagine Wikiversity as a collection of courses. I think that the Board realized a fundamental truth: most wiki editors are not going to have the time or ability to put courses online, and even if they did, conventional courses will not work well in a wiki environment. Another way of saying this is that a wiki cannot compete directly with conventional universities that pay people to put their conventional courses online and where students pay to take the courses. We need to start Wikiversity with an e-learning plan that makes sense for a wiki environment. I think that the new Wikiversity project proposal is okay, but it does not solve the problem of bringing joy to members of the community who think that the Board is wrong about the role of courses in Wikiversity. I think the new proposal needs an introduction that includes something like a timeline which would provide a logical path by which wiki editors could gradually build towards the possibility of wiki-based courses. This is analagous to the way that Wikipedia articles gradually mature. Wikiversity needs to start with basic e-learning projects that will attract participants and might gradually mature into things that are wikified courses. Of course, I am imagining something that the world has never seen, so it is rather hard to create a short and compelling way to "bring joy" to people who think the Board is wrong. I would never deflect anyone from starting a new Wikiversity course, but I think we need to get creative and step outside of "course think". We need to initiate new types of wiki learning projects that will attract participants and create an environment in which wiki format courses might eventually become a reality....while leaving ope to the community to discover and decide what really works best for wiki-based learning. My hunch is that conventional courses will never really flourish in a wiki and we will have to discover new learning formats that are better suited for the wiki format. The only way this is ever really going to happen is to launch the project and jump into it. I think we need to construct a system for getting people to let go of the natural tendency to think only in terms of conventional courses. I suspect we will be able to create/find new wiki-based learning systems that will actually be better than conventional courses. However, many people just fly into a rage when told to think in terms other than courses. I think we need some creativity and brain storming to get us over the hump and get the project launched. --JWSurf 04:08, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I really like and I think I understand the direction that you want to take this. I can see how many people would be turned off from the traditional course flow being placed into the world of wiki since it does not jive with the established idea of how something that is wiki-based grows and matures. I like your idea of getting away from that and moving to a new way of seeing learning through not so much a course as e-learning. I think the big difference between the two is that a course is guided by a teacher and e-learning, at least to me, is more of a free flow type of learning that is based on the students interest and their own pace that they have set for themselves. I like the wikiversity idea because it can be a mesh of the two. Instead of designing courses that are taught our use traditional course ideas, it is more of a guide to offer students the steps they need to take to become knowledgable in a certain area. However, it is still based on a wiki-idea of learning where become knowledgable about a subject means researching and providing something new inherent to that topic.

So, to apply this to your idea of how to solve the "joyful" component, is there a way to word or a way to come up with an idea that embodies what the community wants, some place where there is a structured or partially guided learning environment but to tailor to wiki-based growth so that both the community feels that they are getting what they want and at the same time the board feels that this is a worthwhile endeavor that enhances the wiki name and offers something unique?

If the community offered the board something of this nature, would it be possible just to get the site up so that the community could decide how the best way for the Wikiversity to grow is? It just seems like there is a lot of fine tuning going on even before the wikiversity is "born" and the board is trying to halt it because they don't know how it will grow. Are we in the same idea range, is this something I should maybe add a new section to the proposal and see how people feel and edit? Thoughts? Ferralangel 20:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)ferralangel


 * It sounds like you have a fairly good grasp of the situation. Over the past few months my efforts to "bring joy" to the disenchanted members of the community have failed. My personal problem is that the more I say along these lines the more I just seem to piss people off....I have given up trying because I seem to do more harm than good. I think we are at the point where we need soemone who can cut the Gordian Knot and get the project proposl once again before the Board. Maybe a new voice could say what needs to be said without provoking another automatic rejection from members of the community who can only think in terms of, "I want my free courses, dang it, get to it!" So, if you could take a crack at adding something to the new draft of the Wikiversity project proposal, that would be great. I think you could explicitly say that you are trying to find a way of satisfy both 
 * 1) the Board's desire that the Wikiversity proposal respect the realities of wiki (and, hence, have a reasonable chance of thriving)

and
 * 2) and the members of the community who see courses as the only possible goal for Wikiversity.
 * I've tried to make the argument that we could satisfy these two goals by thinking in terms of the short-term need to attract editors and launch the project and long-term goals that will ultimately only be constrained by what the community can accomplish. That argument does not seem to satisfy people. If you have any other thoughts, feel free to try them out. --JWSurf 23:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)