User talk:Fabartus

 

Welcome to FrankB's Talk
1...These days, THIS is now My WikiHome (User Page) ... and if I am working wiki's, leaving a message here is likely the fastest way to get my attention (even over email, which might be surer when I've no time to volunteer to wiki's, but in general, will likely be a bit slower!)


 * re: Fabartus-at-gmail.com * 

2... If the matter is a Wikibook or Commons issue, the talk goes here, and I will get an email on gmail.com (same user name) notifying me of your post, but feel free to email me for any reasons such as  to notify me more urgently like: (Hey, Dude! See your WB:Talk!) if you're in a hurry for a response.
 * (HOWEVER, If I've the time ''and I'm working on Wikis, I should see the post here nearly immediately.)

Thanks&mdash;'The management'  * This form defeats webcrawling spammer spiders looking for  '@'  links



Links
Hello and welcome to Wikibooks!

Here are some tips to help you get started:
 * You can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using four tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126;.
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You will find more resources in Community Portal. If you want to ask a question, visit the Study help desk, the Staff lounge, IRC channel or ask me personally on my talk page.

Good luck! // Fra nkB 21:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Evolutionary Rather Than Revolutionary
That's awesome man. I've lost count of the people i've seen come and go from Wikipedia because of the bizzare pseudo-anarchy/oligarchy there. Hopefully with some time off and the increasing experience i'm getting in real world politics, i'll be able to help you with your new and improved versions of my thoughts. Karmafist 03:53, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Policy review
Policy is not the most exciting subject at Wikibooks but we do have some major unresolved issues.

The most important issue, in my opinion, is Dispute resolution which starts by declaring that:

"Currently there is no official organized process to resolve disputes between users"

The suggested remedy for this is: Ad hoc administration committee which puts into place the absolute minimum in terms of an enforcement apparatus.

The second most important is No personal attacks where a vote has recommended the policy be enforced but it still languishes as "proposed".

The third policy that is needed and which will prevent edit disputes from getting out of hand is Editing disputes policy.

Other policies that need consideration are at: Policies and guidelines.

Please spare a minute or two to peruse these issues and add a comment and/or a vote. RobinH 12:42, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * RobinH&mdash;Sorry, I've been swamped over at Wikipedia and Life too! I'll take a peek at the policy proposals sometime this weekend. It's been a while so I don't know what good it will do!

Best regards, // Fra nkB 05:55, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Importing templates
Please stop - we do not need any of the templates you have imported so far as I can tell. When we need templates we can import them with a full history. Thanks for your attention. &mdash; Mike.lifeguard &#124; talk 01:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedyD help
I had trouble getting '&' to behave in a link forming template and consequently need a number of pages double moved (I'd stubbed in before I noticed the url malformation). That is possibly some to back over the redirect where they came from initially... OR at least one like that as below. I'm still trying to juggle organizing things into 4+ sub-books (Divisions) vice 4+ volumes, so I've no list yet to hand off.
 * copied from User talk:Xania
 * re: There may be the one mess I'm thinking of.''


 * What's the 'going rate' and the best place to commission such work. I pay top-Wiki-dollars!  Seriously, is there an admins notice board, etc.

Thanks for the help, Answer here or on my talk if you want to back and forth. I'm currently working on updating Trainz at least 12 hrs a day. Skype is an option if we really need a conference! LOL Best regards, Frank // Fra nkB 06:42, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * trimmed // Fra nkB 09:12, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure exactly what you want. If there are pages that need moving let me know or leave a message on Reading_room/Administrative_Assistance.  If it's something more technical then it may be best to do the latter as other people are better with those things.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Estonia.svg|15px]]talk 11:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's the link I wanted. Is there an IRC channel and such too? Actually, just point me in the direction of what ever Wikibooks uses for an Admin handbook, and I can read from there. Many Thanks! // Fra nkB 16:23, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The IRC channels can be found on Contact_us. There is usually somebody in the channels but not sure how quick their responses might be.  Not sure about an Admin handbook - I'm sure there was one once.  All I can find is Administrators but it's not very detailed.--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Estonia.svg|15px]]talk 20:39, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Re: Stumbled over your C++ book work today
Thanks for the template references and luck. :) I'm having trouble deciding the order of some things in the C++ book, so if you're familiar with the language I'd appreciate your thoughts on where I left off.

I tried to teach from example code, by implementing simple projects. I wanted to only explain what showed up in the example code, and thereby avoid the unnecessary parts of the language. Unfortunately, not everything necessary ended up in the example code early enough for my liking. So I was writing a page for cleaning that situation up. I got frustrated (and changed jobs) and left it for a while, but I'll revisit it soon. --Jesdisciple (discuss • contribs) 12:40, 5 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I can follow along and hum A FEW BARS! Been programming in one language or another since 1976, but my C++ is more student level in need of a refresher than that of a current expert. I just recently picked up a compiler since I lost my last in a HDD crash 6-7 years ago, so I have some rust to blow off.


 * Last I did any big project coding C++ & C# were the new fancy-schmancy versions of C trying to horn in on the ANSI Standard C we'd been using for our 2.5 millions of lines of code.


 * OTOH, I understand the cart-before-the-horse problem quite well. Consider what I used as a solution with Trainz/Glossary and Trainz/references/Notations and see templates TG and TN respectively. Giving a link of a term to an explanation of the concept might be able to break your logjam. In my case the audience might be Mary Mom Homemaker trying to help Edger Eight years old to Ron Retired Railway worker, aged 77&mdash; with his newly bought first PC so he can run this Trainz Simulator thing and stop being bored, to bone fide technical gurus. At least your audience doesn't quite have THAT kind of span!


 * I expect to be looking over your work, but the C++ learning curve and such are definitely back burner for me for the next few months. If you have a particular set of or single page etc. you want an opinion feel free to ask. I'm often on skype and you can email me as well. Use At gmail, same name. 'frank'-dot-'a'-dot- my last name on the skype. Steam VOI as well, but let's do email before getting into that user name! // Fra nkB 23:38, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Trainz version Tane
Hello Frank, Thank you for your message. You wrote:

''Come introduce yourself in the general reading room or your project in the project reading room. If you have any questions, you can ask in the assistance reading room or contact me personally. The Trainz book is organized a bit differently than the 'preferred' organization for a single book by topic as it's neither an academic field, nor a single topic having focal needs in operations, route building, asset fundamentals, asset construction requirements (data models and their evolution and impact), and of course, content creation of individual assets. It also must needs cover diverse other topics''

''Thankyou for your edit about Trainz TANE, though given the beta/incomplete status you may have jumped the gun a bit. Are you prepared to document some of the differences from the older ways of doing business? I had a bad accident and am just now able to get back onto a computer after tangling with hospitals these past two months.''

To introduce myself: i am 58 Years old. I live in Germany, northern Black Forest ;-) . I use Trainz since the MS Train Simulator faded away. Yes, I tried "Rail Simulator" but my PC-System was not up to it. When I switched to an Apple-System, Trainz for Mac was the only option, and I loved it (with the only con till Trainz 2 for Mac, that I only could run it in a window and not fullscreen). Trainz 2 for Mac was a leap forward. with cons... Fullscreen: yes, but you can not pass much content from Trainz for Mac to Trainz 2 for Mac. Train 2 for Mac brought Marias Pass (as payware "Marias Pass X" thanks to the help of HP-Trains) back... nice! I got some awesome engines from the DLS and Jointed Rail. I got some awesome ingame payware, but very badly documented. I contributed the crowdsourcing project TANE because I wanted a state of the art train simulator for mac! Yes, I am a train simulation nerd and I bought an high end imac to run TANE!

They delivered it very fast for christmas 2014. TANE Collectors Editoin ( it is the Deluxe Edition) I consider as a release candidate. Yes it has bugs. You can not max out the video settings, even with a high end mac... Flying scotsman stalls. But You have St. Pauls Pass back, halleluja, even with non operational signals, aaaah... You can import the Big Boy, but if you don't fix the engine spec,  riding from Avery to Drexel is a ride to Gloryland. Your boiler will explode (not simulated). As a thank yo for your answer here a hint: Open the engine spec of the Big Boy for edit and set the safty valve min to 0.5 or 0.6 and the max to 2.4 to 2.6. Enjoy the ride! I also suggest you to tweak the safety valves at the N&W Y6b at Trainz 2012; whoa, wat an engine!

O.k. to come back. My native language is German. I don't want to mess up the book. I speak english, but in this Message you see, it's not perfect. I found this book because I searched for the keyboard shortcuts for the blower, driving steam engines.

I wish you all the best for 2015 and a complete recovery and good health and luck in the future!

Hans-Peter (aka Trevithick in Trainz-forums)


 * OK, thanks for the bio, Trevithick, but if you are a MAC enthusiast, suggest you are one of the guys the Wikibook MOST needs. I'm not worried about your lack of confidence in English -- your intent is clear enough and "misspellings" are auto-highlighted in my browser (even for many British spellings!) and easy enough to correct, if needed... A question now and again can clear up any other shortcomings. Notice from any of several pages in this list, for example this test one, one can make pages that aren't anything close to being finished and get a collaborator such as me to help put them into final shape. I daresay comparing your initial and any final page will do wonders for your mastery of written English! In the meantime, contemplate some of the copy generated and submitted by such individuals as a blue collar track layer, an engineer, or railroad electrician, not to mention the occasional expert assists some 12-15 year olds can set out!


 * IMAC content, special problems, and techniques are essentially missing in the Wikibook at the moment. In return, maybe we can show you some of the tricks you need to have in your toolbox to port content into the MAC world. Not sure of exactly what you experienced, but seems likely you have been seeing 'the MAC side' of some common "data model" drift problems, a matter I've made a topic of particular study as a computer engineer and to the discomfiture of the N3V programmers. In fact I'm currently persona non-grata on the forums (I should probably do something about that soon) because I gave the N3V a lot of grief over some very questionable decisions. I'd be fascinated to converse with you over what you can and cannot see AND download from the DLS, for example. So think it over if you have the least impulse to provide some help for the young and less wary--defanging the Trainz experience and helping others up the learning curve is what the Trainz book is all about...
 * I'm just two years older than you, so we probably have a lot in common. Best regards // Fra nkB 00:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * P.S. You can customize your signature, skin and other things in user preferences, then message with three or four tilde characters (~) like ~ those. My signature with the two colors is precisely this:

Fra nkB Or could be this instead: Fra nkB
 * ( Fra nkB )

Templates...
Hi, Can you have another look at the rather complex templates you uploaded recently as they seem to be showing up on LintErrors, and it's taking a lot of effort to pin down EXACTLY where the HTML is unbalanced?

The normal approach for documenting template pages is documentation rather than the overly complex approach you appear to be using currently. ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 20:58, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * When it takes more than 3 attempts to repair a template namely Template:TRS-hdrbox, that template is too complex to reasonably maintain. Please simplify or split it up into simpler templates with clearly defined specifications, so that subsequent contributors are not having to play hunt the bracket, or hunt the comment, in order to actually make the template work as designed, when errors are uncovered. Thanks.

ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 21:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Giving an point of impact link would have been helpful. Why was anyone editing it in the first place. It's a central/core template for all five divisions of the Trainz Wikibook. On the Braces issue... Try using a good external editor like the freeware Notepad++ and let it match the curly braces, parenthesis, and square brackets for you! I've taken a look through the edit-war you two seem to have waged, and can't see why either of you were fiddling with it at all.  I assume good faith, but you give nothing explaining the causal problem.  I will revisit my email notice arrangements... I know I sent them to a little monitored email account, so I'll fix that now that I'm resuming activity here and on the commons.


 * As to documentation and doc sub-pages, You're addressing the person who invented it, and I do mean the WHOLE method of using sub-pages, but I haven't the time in my life to chase down every sites peculiar peccadillos and variants. Years ago, tried that with the interwiki-template project (Some sister-sites still have the cross-link templates in place) which would have maintained a broad list of core templates, sets of  universal templates sharing exactly the same arguments sister-to-sister, but the local yokels often felt we were peeing in their turf or something.  Each sister has its own culture. Shrug. Just the way people are, I guess. After 6-8 months of endless unproductive talk discussions and some overt hostility, we simply caved in and went away.


 * Now, the transition to the self-substituting documentation sub-page header also spawned competing versions and factions for a while. Overall, The 'Local Template Police' (mob) took that over years ago now (?2009?) and what I'm using isn't very complex at all--it is quite basic. Frankly, I get cross-eyed trying to parse what the hell is going on with documentation. What I've done with documentation is... well, I'm doing it as is very close to the original implementation. The pages which have sufficient inclusions (by What links here) to be significant are (or will be eventually) given a more formal more standardized \doc page format and a \doc page, provided time to get to them exists. Otherwise, without lots of inclusions, it's a waste of time and effort to jump through the hoops and certainly unnecessary.  The whole purpose of using the sub-page method is to unload the server page composition, and minimize rebuilding if documentation is updated. This was and is only a occasional issue even in the large template intensive webpages like Wikipedia, and unlikely to ever be an issue here on the Wikibook, no page gets modified often enough, nor gets loaded with templates used in scads and scads of multiple pages. The issue is when one of those underlying templates appears on many pages triggering a cascade of page updates, on one hand, and the amount of space allocated in memory to template expansions on each such action on another related level... trimming out the usage cuts down the text included, so long help text instructions can be undertaken, if necessary.  If the code is unaffected, because usage instructions or categories or such is changed in the sub-page nothing is done in the system database, except the doc page update edit and category link changes/formations.


 * As it is, I haven't been able to keep up with the pages I should be writing and updating the past three and a half years, though I've put my toe back in the water recently, and hope to give it prime time towards the end of summer. I hope to be ramping up to a regular planned succession of changes and the many topics we've never written.  Between now and then, I have a major construction project to finish and sigh, alas, my wife has a honey-do list that will keep me from making it a project that can command a lot of time and focus.  My youngest was supposed to get married next month, now delayed until November by the virus outbreak, but that means the honey-do list  got longer and less flexible since I retired last fall and she didn't.  In other words, 'She' has ideas about my time and where and how I spend it. Hardly seems fair!  Some might say it sucks to be me. I'll take the fifth.  // Fra nkB 23:53, 21 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you, and I owe you an apology, for sounding so hostile initially. The issue was that the current Mediawiki back-end is lot less tolerant of certain edge cases in terms of the HTML it generates (strict HTML5 vs the looser HTML4 it used previously) This means that certain generated (or embdedded) HTML tags which would have otherwise been closed at certain locations previously, are either not closed at the same point, or at all under the current version, and thus it needs (ideally by the original template authors, since they have the best expertise in what was intended,) the affected templates to be updated to take into account the stricter parsing and rendering in use on the current software. My edits are always made in good faith, with a view to resolving the issue. The intent with the edits I was trying to make, was to 'rebalance' the HTML tags in the template, with the stricter parsing in mind.


 * I agree with you that tracking down what documentation is doing can cause a headaches... templates using autotranslate on Commons have equivalent headache inducing qualities.

ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 08:10, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * In terms of the substantive content, was it only Trainz you were focusing on, or did you plan to write articles for Train Simulator and OpenBVE as well? ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 08:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * - The list of identified Linter concerns was at Special:LintErrors, there is a technical explanation at https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Lint_errors, and some suggestions on how certain coding anomalies could be repaired. ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 10:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Some other considerations (not noted in the link above).
 * SPAN based tags must be 'complete' (i.e the opening and closing tag) within a line, and cannot contain block level elements like DIV or P.  Given that many contributors myself included have been caught out by this, adding a note in the documentation for a given template as to whether block or span level elements are expected for a prarameter helps..ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 10:39, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Within SPAN bases elements, there cannot be implied paragraph breaks (the blank line) because mediawiki will try to insert appropriate P, which leads to misnested (and malfromed) HTML being generated.
 * If you've opened a DIV inside a template, trying to use mediawiki list syntax can be a problem, as mediwiki will on some ocassions close the DIV prematurely before starting the UL OL or DL concerned..
 * should be replaced. use of the  tag with the lang atttribute set to mediawiki and   as appropriate, Use of   in similar vein.
 * Use of,   ,   is deprecated. See https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Lint_errors/obsolete-tag for replacements.  Ideally you should also be using templatestyles if you template is likely to be generating a lot of similar inline CSS. ( When I converted a table generating template I had on Wiki-source to use Templatestyles, the amount of expansion needed dropped to a tenth, which has obvious performance gains. )
 * ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 10:41, 22 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Goodness! Have to chuckle as I address you on this. Half of what you wrote above reads like greek to me these days... which is where the chuckle comes in... you opened the section/1st message with  and IIRC, its been at least five years or more since I started to put those together / in place--end of summer 2013, IIRC, so Ahem to 'recently uploaded'... now that I've picked on you for next to nothing, I'm serious about the greek… I've been away from HTML since then, and never did follow CSS and the whole slew of modern script C & XML knockoffs. I can stumble around a bit, but Lint.whatever is something in China having to do with Virus's released upon an unsuspecting world as far as I know.  Forgive the flippancy. I was pressing this week so three short nights were followed by going to bed this morning at 04:20 and getting back to it come 09:15.  Since I started programming when COBOL and FORTRAN were the only games in town, and as mentioned, have retired this past year, all the modern--let's change things and make more work for ourselves so we can ask for more pay philosophies are quite alien to me.  Sigh... we're getting off into philosophy and world views I fear. Suffice it to say learning anything much new about any script implementations is about as popular with me as Trump is with die hard progressives. I do what I can, and try to keep my head down.


 * That said, I'm wired to be responsible about things, especially if something I did is causing a problem. So, without understanding the proximal triggers in Lint … OMG! I just followed your link to here, where it appears whatever you modern thinkers are doing you seem to be trashing begin-end pairing... which frankly means I just want to cut and run.  Suffice it to say I get the inkling the problem is my templates are expecting to be on a full page, and not parsed by LINT and whatnot, when they aren't. Currently, in edit mode (Old style, I have zip for experience with the interactive editor that came in about when I was making these header/footer templates … I tried it briefly... and ran to the old ways ASAP.) you see any section the way you would the same old fashioned way... the header/footer formatting don't manifest. Compose the whole page, and everything works together.  If that's what you are trying to say is the problem, that some third party app is patrolling and hiccupping on these templates, since they appear unbalanced, well, kick the programmer in the ass.  The balance is in the whole, not a piece. If it weren't so, you could  get a flat and not worry about the missing tire. N'est pas?  How to fix it?  Have no clue. They were designed to span that way. (Well, actually one . Whatever is hiccupping needs an exception list, and those pages need added so it doesn't give hiccups!)'' If HTML 5, which has been coming forever since at least 2013, is finally here in Wikimedia's implementation, well somebody is breaking things in an attempt to  fix something. Contact me when the whole is broken, and I'll gladly take a look. Since I like whitespace, sounds to me like the committee members who approved HTML 5 ought to be dragged out to the wall and shot. In the meantime, I haven't even figured out how to update my email, so put my username together with gmail after an apropos @ sign, etc...(Hint, hint... ) and get me a whole lot faster. Ok. Faster than two weeks! (Sorry, I'm focused in house!)


 * Also, re: 'Big and such tags' have been depreciated forever... since they are such an integral part of wikimarkup, I really doubt they'll ever be disconnected. Learning whatever that long winded overly verbose syntax is interests me about as much as Donald Trump would want to Kiss Nancy Fallacy.  I haven't the interest, and my energies, waning far too quick as it is, is much needed elsewhere!  If we need to trash the templates, big sigh, then we can do so, but then linking things like they were envisioned to do will be far more laborious… seems to be trend.  Nobody today gives any weight to the KISS principle.


 * Lastly, your questions on the 22nd about subject matter... I have a rail simulator product, the competing major simulator (and descendent of MSTS, according to my contacts)-- never opened the plastic wrapper. Also got a replacement copy of MSTS at one point, never booted that either. So no. Trainz has dimensions... so many topics for tutorial subject matter, there is no way I could address half of them. Personally, Interested right now continuing up the learning curve in digital modeling and asset creation, starting recently with modification-class-creations using others meshes.  Getting textures right is an artform and pain enough for starters.  That's about as much as I can process tonight... midnights half an hour away and I still have lots to do.  If you see something manifesting a problem, email me ASAP and within a few days I'll hopefully see it.  I'm about to launch back into an outside construction project, I'd better, the wife is making unhappy noises about my immersion in computers again this past couple months... so that's the best I can do.  If it's widespread breaking page rendering, use the void template to vanish the whole body of code, and give me a link to a pre-change history.  Be well, stay well. I've got to get back into registry editing... had to move some really big folders across to my biggest drive last month, and Windows 10 has a few things tangled up... one of the perils of keeping legacy releases on hand to vett things through all the major software updates.


 * OMG! Have to chuckle again, had mentally figured this closed, and made the mistake of another proof read through... re: [Duck, I'm about to hit on you again! ] … saw this: "( When I converted a table generating template I had on Wiki-source to use Templatestyles, the amount of expansion needed dropped to a tenth, which has obvious performance gains. )" Hmmmm, really. was it a nanosecond or 35 microseconds in your eyeblink time?  Stats can seem awful important, but experience also considers the real cost in time... for example I ran the freeware utility FNR.EXE to find a string this morning somewhere in a hierarchy of about 1800 folders. I didn't have time to grab my coffee cup handle and it was finished. THAT is today's computer reality.  Wikimedia's servers are certainly not slower than my old desktop.  Respect YOUR time, cause unnecessary changes will be forced on you and even if something 'stats out' 50% faster, one must think of how often such an event will be multiplied and what impact that is on the humans viewing the event if that 100% is already damn quick. It's not 1983 anymore, when we'd wait 3 minutes for the disk to  load... you know?  If your template takes 50 mSec less once every week, as my search this morning took less than four seconds on a ton of data mass... well. It's your time. But remember that Better is enemy of Good Enough and the 90:10 rule is real.  It really will take 90% of the time to do that last 10% if perfect is the goal, or equivalently... 'The best I can conceive'.  Being productive means knowing when to chop the process with good enough and go onto other priorities. In that light, consider neither wiki-source nor here have loads of daily edits... Wikipedia, sure. Most other sisters measure the numbers of page changes per day, not in the hundreds per minute. Enough perspective. G'night!

Frank Fra nkB 04:07, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Lint errors...
Hi..

As you normally seem to know what you are doing. Can I ask for an informal review of my recent efforts in this area?.

Generally I've tried to look for 'strcutural' errors, but have also been attempting to fix things like unclosed formatting.

BTW if you wanted to de-lint the Trainz Wikibook during updates I've found the script at w:User:PerfektesChaos/js/lintHint useful, even if in some instances a much deeper analysis of what needs updating is needed, from it's initial results on a page. ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 18:58, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Special:LintErrors had more than a few of the Trainz related pages listed in some of it's reporting catergories. As you wrote a lot of the content and templates, you probably better know what was intended with some of them.

ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 18:58, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * A) How the hell does this work... OIC--yet another unnecessary better mousetrap...
 * B) WE discussed my misperceived LINT errors almost exactly a year ago in the section above on my talk (See your posts starting: "21:59, 15 April 2020").
 * C) As then, now I know little about HTML and nothing about lint and HATE HATE HATE hidden things like the scripts (including CSS) which are I infer allowing me to write this reply. I'm a computer engineer and can hum a few bars of HTML, literally because I had to learn it, but I've next to no education in computer science topics that became fashionable post-1992. LINT I think I recall as a UNIX utility one used to check out C code before C had a baby ++, or was even called Standard-C... maybe off a year or two there... one job I had back around 90-91 was interested in being compliant with standard C, so maybe that's the wife birthing little ++ a few years later.
 * D) Bottom line, the TRAINZ Wikibook page header and footer templates are providing different ends of a closed HTML formatting sequence, everything should be balanced on a rendered page. The proof is in how they look, not the assumptions some software tool has in its design. OTOH, … immediately making a liar of my thought just above...
 * C) Having said that, it occurs to me that there may be pages, perhaps up to a couple of dozen, having multiple footer templates (Suffixed '-bot' nominally) because those footer templates all also auto-categorize, so grabbing the various footer's what links here and looking for duplicate pages may detect such pages and if they exist outside my recollections... I'd bet those are likely some of what you are seeing. In fact, LINT may be taking you directly too them. Look at page bottoms for two tail-placed templates with '-bot' suffixes...  In which case, simply subst-ing the second, least applicable class of footer to expose the second close-HTML-element, then deleting the unbalanced close-div or end-table or whatever's extra... Should fix your LINT issues on rendered pages.  If you are looking with un-rendered pages, you are likely pursuing ghosts, and frankly, I don't see the point.  Given a Wikibook page on average likely gets re-rendered once every 1.44534234 years, efficiency is hardly a need or motivator.
 * I will keep my eyes out, but haven't and won't have time to survey for that type of corresponded for a couple weeks, if then. I'm really just refamiliarizing myself with the state of the book, having been away dealing with non-volunteer life since 2015, IIRC. It certainly hasn't gotten my attention much since then, save using it as a reference, and an occasional edit.  The weather has finally broken, here in Boston, and I expect to shift to outdoor activities (Construction projects to complete) once I get medical clearance provided the weather co-operates.
 * In closing, let me suggest if your LINT doesn't steer you to such pages, use the special pages to list each header type and paste into a text file. Re-cut N copy those to a spread sheet, then do the same for each footer. Alphabetically--sort each column. Eight columns in four data sets should correspond with their class partner in each pair of columns. Any matching names in the -bot columns is a doubled footer. Any matches in the '-top' columns is a double-header call... this is unlikely, but it is possible indecision on a new stub page lead to the situation.
 * Good Luck,
 * Fra nkB 20:09, 28 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Okay so you are saying these templates are 'unsupported', that's reasonable. 88.97.96.89 (discuss) 08:09, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * However at the very least it would be nice if you could document somewhere how some of them are supposed to work, because in Template:ORP-top I've found SPAN's trying to wrap tables, which is badly formed HTML. I am also seeing an unmatched which I am not understanding. When it's taken 10 or so attempts to get a template to generate good markup, it's not unreasonable to ask the creator of a template what was actually trying to be done, but as you say these are unsupported.  (sigh) ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 08:10, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * You know, a year ago I asked you for a specific complaint, perhaps we talked past each other. Now you say there is a unmatched noinclude. THAT is a specific complaint; congratulations! Finally not just general whining.  Further, I didn't say they were unsupported, only that I have no empathy for such non-specific complaints, and I sure feel like you are just amusing yourself with unnecessary work-like jerking off. SO you certainly haven't made your case with the necessity of asking for MY TIME.
 * OTOH, I was raised in a era when personal responsibility was part of every American's belief system. Personally, I don't give a hoot about LINT and such CS tools, but I'm also a guy that will help a stranger, so certainly a guy to help ameliorate a problem my work may have caused.
 * Confession time... To be honest, as a firmware guy, I'm quite comfortable with unbalanced code--using a goto to finish off a process by letting a common return segment clean up and pop the stack and what-not. Here, I have things, goals that need capabilities, and so I picked up some html, if there is something wrong about span enclosing a table, then ADDRESS THAT... or edit and fix it.
 * if lint is spitting out some other specific, STATE THAT, or drop me a copy of the print out so I can SEE THE PROBLEM. Do not cite some vague plan to abandon things in place for well over a decade as being something I should care about. I'm a firm believer in Heinlein's observation about committees being "the only known entity with six or more legs and no brain!" IIRC.
 * Very simply, the evidence is wikimarkup language has worked fine for years, and there is no requirement in the universe that requires it evolve to some new technique, some exotic standard, some academic committee decided was a more elegant way to do things. More than likely, THAT new state is more esoteric and obscure, requiring greater expertise and training, not simpler and easy to understand. Last I heard, THAT last bit is a pre-requisite for the five pillars... letting anyone contribute and edit, don't you know.
 * Insofar as the improved documentation, I'll give it some priority, but Thought that adequate... the templates all share the same core, IIRC, perhaps you didn't look at that something something -hdr, iirc. Bottom line is this. The header's prime mission is threefold
 * provide a formatting wrapper to change the page appearance with a slightly variant look and background color than boring bland 101. Part of that was picking a different font... which btw, seems less than effective given a variation in browsers.
 * Provide mutable semi-standard sectional title lines controlled by four parameters, two text overrides and two colorizing overrides. Don't recall whether that allows other formatting such as a font-size in the implementation, but that's the gist.
 * Concurrently, provide links to navigate NEXT, PREV, UP and DOWN (with assumptions in the link formation) to link different book major sectional addresses. The links provide threading capabilities for tutorial succession, where wanted. Conceptually, the book sections are essentially colorized Mylar binder tabs sticking out past the edge of pages so a different reference section can be reached quickly.
 * Part is tutorial, parts of those are stand-alone how-to topics (Articles),
 * part background technical instructionals... from basic to complex with examples, and part reference.
 * The latter parallel's the TrainzOnline Wiki and makes up for it's generational bias. The Trainz Wiki is programmer written, and ignores evolution of coding and technique, just presents the current 'ideal' state of the art. Digital models however from twenty years ago are still viable and desirable, but may need a few tweaks. THAT it the data ignored by the programmers, we include an focus on, plus how-to evolve from the old standards to the new.
 * Those sectional links are embedded near the bottom of the header box. The whole layout of the book is conceptualized by the yards-wide reference racks of tech data and catalogs you used to see in auto parts stores and purchasing departments of big institutions. Different catalogs 3-6 inches wide, with their tabs living co-existing next to a competitors 4 inches of offerings, next to fifty other vendors. You still see some of these if you look behind the right counters, just far fewer book-inches... to make room for the monitors my generation segued the world into using.
 * Secondarily, provide standardized links, and generally standardized page titles (Two, major and minor, with some adjustability) to the sections of the Wikibook… some Boolean switch parameters may change the standardized headers and may add an autocategory when a topic is a cross-tab page which should be listed in a parallels category. We do have to find these pages!
 * Third, conditionally provide especially important links to pages a new Trainzer might need at any time... 4-5 of those (iirc) are links to hotkey reference tables, for operations in different modules of the software system. Ditto, suppression ability when desired for a standardized narrow style TOC box.
 * Now the bottoms provide a different kind of function:
 * IIRC, they provide a couple of bottom page standard section titles for notes and other reference works.
 * they auto-categorize so a contributor who spent his career as a car maker, Diesel Mechanic, Train Driver, yardman, or brakeman can contribute and not worry about such minutia. They have input terms for additional categories, and a suppression variable or two to not do something they do normally.
 * Lastly, they may provide standard links and boilerplate tagging to a source page on the TrainzWiki. By and large those are obscure dry technical references which speak in geek, not elementary level coverages of Trainz tech.
 * It occurs to me that if you take lorem and sandwich it by each top-bottom template pair on a sandbox page, and test THAT, you and LINT should be able to decipher where such issues are creating a problem... one I can't see. Feel free to make such a sandbox page in my talk subpages, that way if something is found, you can just link it to me with a note about what is wrong. I'm willing to cooperate, but won't shovel sand with a fork, capeesh?
 * I hope to hell that you are savvy enough to be looking at actual raw code, and not some abstracted presentation in a tool. I comment a fair amount and organize with whitespace generously, and add grouping divider lines and such--my code should be pretty decipherable if transferred to a decent text editor that matches braces and parenthesis. Most worth using will offer a mode which highlights search terms everywhere in a document. Unbalanced whatever tags in html should pop out looking that way.  Given the internal braces have to balance to work without leaving curly brace artifacts behind visible on a page, we can assume the fundamental structures are fine... even if my HTML is either old fashioned, or unrecommended or simply wrong.  THIS IS NOT a subject I ever really wanted great mastery in, but there is always that great motivator out there--how to do some task and do it well.  I will own up that I have occasionally left something hanging because I moved a html end comment string, either end--usually whilst checking cause and effect myself. That sort of thing likely accounts for any noinclude strays out there... one weakness of html, imho, is the fact the comments open and close strings are so different. Auto-matching ends would be much easier if simple glyphs were at both ends.
 * In the meantime, later today I'll steal some time and look at the usage, I need the refresher myself now that I'm working systematically into getting back in the saddle here and trying to figure out how to evolve the book into Trainz New Era's new look see and feel! Ironically I spent last evening adding usage to other's templates whilst looking for tools (shopping in template cats) to do some things without writing another myself! Life can bite your ass in oh-so-many-ways, n'est pas?
 * Which page or pages are you seeing loose html tags upon? List a couple, and I'll take a look for the problem. This leaves me a cup of coffee short and I've got a rendezvous appointment in 2-1/2 hrs to get ready for. TTFN, good hunting!
 * Fra nkB 13:31, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Just adding this: Before 'leaving for my day', I happened to find myself in our first encounter above, and refreshing my knowledge-base in that a bit, today noticed the link you gave to lint special pages: https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors ...  So Apologies. Today I followed it, and see your complaints in a few categories:
 * https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/tidy-font-bug
 * https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/html5-misnesting
 * https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/multiline-html-table-in-list
 * Given THAT tactile information, I can probably help you hunt these things down. Interesting to me is how few are enumerated, from which I infer the problem is likely NOT in the header-footers at all, at all. Their logic is too stable, and a conditional would have to enclose a html mode tag for 'it' to be a causal factor. The TTip and TrainzTip and some of the related box templates may be ought be prime suspects.  Take a look at those, for your span issue in particular.  Right now, I'm out of time. LATER!
 * Frank
 * -- btw, this is fine, but surer and faster to email same username at gmail if you need a more rapid give and take. By that I mean write here but ping there so notify both... no telling when I'll look at either, but should do one or the other in any given three day period. I tend to focus on things not needing internet these days, but do check now and then!
 * Fra nkB 14:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Special:LintErrors/multiline-html-table-in-list
 * Given THAT tactile information, I can probably help you hunt these things down. Interesting to me is how few are enumerated, from which I infer the problem is likely NOT in the header-footers at all, at all. Their logic is too stable, and a conditional would have to enclose a html mode tag for 'it' to be a causal factor. The TTip and TrainzTip and some of the related box templates may be ought be prime suspects.  Take a look at those, for your span issue in particular.  Right now, I'm out of time. LATER!
 * Frank
 * -- btw, this is fine, but surer and faster to email same username at gmail if you need a more rapid give and take. By that I mean write here but ping there so notify both... no telling when I'll look at either, but should do one or the other in any given three day period. I tend to focus on things not needing internet these days, but do check now and then!
 * Fra nkB 14:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * -- btw, this is fine, but surer and faster to email same username at gmail if you need a more rapid give and take. By that I mean write here but ping there so notify both... no telling when I'll look at either, but should do one or the other in any given three day period. I tend to focus on things not needing internet these days, but do check now and then!
 * Fra nkB 14:00, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Here! I fixed one-for now. LOL Fra nkB 14:06, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Thank you for responding...

I finally figured out what was broken in ORP-top but would appreciate a review in case I 'de-paired' or 'de-wrapped' something in the repair.

I apologise for my tone previously, it can be frustrating debugging complex code, and my comments although reflecting that frustration are unprofessional of me.

I've noted some of the things I am seeing, attempting to repair below, (If you were reviewing specific pages.. I will add that the Special Errors pages I linked can generate a lot of 'noise' with respect to some situations that will render without concerns.). You are probably aware of most of these anyway.

DIV opened in noinclude, but closed outside it or in Includeonly
This will leak closing div's when transcluded. Unless it's documented that's what is being done, Templates generally have to have 'balanced' tags. When a template has portions it can be hard to pin down what's going on due to the templates having different analysis in the script I was using.

However Templates with 'unblanced' HTML are not unknown, and generally this situation occurs with pairs of templates that are supposed to 'wrap' other content. With these a noinclude portion is often used to provide a 'close' or 'open' portion to one half of the pair when it's displayed in TYemplte: namespace, or in documentation.

I had a concern that some of my recent attempts at repairs may have 'de-paired' an intended wrapping... Especially Template:ORP-top and ORP-bot where to resolve the lint-error, I re-ordered some of the closures after having converted SPAN's to DIV's as a table was being generated by the template they were nominally enclosing. (Aside: An HTML SPAN can't contain a table, and so a DIV has to be used instead. (see s:H:DIVSPAN )

doLevels Wrapping limitation
An example:

Here the issue is that the opening DIV and SPAN are not separate. Mediawiki (in a known limitation) will put a P before Another line which is not necessarily the intended markup.

implied P break in SPAN level formatting
and.

Where mediawiki (not HTML as I understand it) see the intermediate line as a paragraph break...

These will render, but will report as a lint-error concerns..

The repair in the first is to generally is to remove the unintended line break, in the second to apply a DIV wrapper instead of SMALL, or apply the SMALL to each line item separately.

span level elements attempting to wrap a DIV
Another error that is simpler than it first seems...  This reports as 2 missing end tags (I) or as a missing end (I) /stripped tag pair (I)

This can be tricky to pin-down when what is in the wikimarkup is:-

where foo and bar contain wrapping SPAN's and someone supplied DIV based content as the paramater buzz

Span level elements attempting to wrap a block level such as a TABLE
The styling should be moved to the table.

NB. I've had something like this catch me out on lists.

which ideally should be coded as

Or a DIV wrapper used :-

Note on Template Styles
If an inline style, used in a template is static but longer than 2 or 3 items then consider a wrapper DIV via a template and a CSS class defined using TemplateStyles, an approach I've used at English Wikisource.

If you have a lot of tables ( You don't seem to on the pages I've examined.) that use the same formatting repeatedly, again consider using Templatestyles.

You may have your own reasons for not writing CSS stylesheets directly, such as needing a style to be dynamic based on template inputs. Generally the approach with template styles is something like..

Pre Templatestyles

Post templatestyles.

Contents of 'styles.css'

You already use inline-styles via a template in TRS Style as I understand it, Templatestyles is a variant on that approach, but because it uses actual stylesheets, the styles that can be implemented are slightly more complex than for an inline style.

Unintended whitespace in template Paramater
(This is one that's caught me out at least twice.)

If foo uses code like  then a lint concern arises because an unnamed parameter preserves the trailing whitespace, which breaks the  bold formatting (which has to be on the same line), this then breaks the SPAN. One method used for ensuring this doesn't create issues (and so that foo will work with or without trailing whitespace in the given paramaeter is to use a Lua function  to strip whitespace, in the template code. I'm not sure if the requisite module is on Wikibooks though.

Apologies for a lengthy post. If I think of other specific things I've encountered you have no objections to me noting them below? ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 16:01, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * FWIW, in my template shop around this past week, I've seen a few things refer to Lua (whatever that is, but such a comment indicating Lua was doing some formatting magic.) so try it on a user talk page or other sandbox and see if you can make it work. That's how most template concepts get debugged.
 * Fra nkB 20:48, 30 March 2021 (UTC)


 * BTW the updated way of doing your signature would be

Previous usages look like they can be replaced with a bot, if you know any bot-operators willing to do it. 16:01, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Specifc Template issue...
Concerning Page or/Template: TRC Line (approximate): 38 Code portion affected:

Issue: Template BL is invoked/called with a List in the parameter. Template BL can only accept span based arguments as it uses a SPAN internally to set the color of the text concerned.

Proposed solution 1: Move the BL formatting to each list item. Proposed solution 2: Create a new template BL_block that uses a DIV into which a list can be placed.

I figured as you stated you'd done software stuff previously, something more like a bugticket would be reasonable) ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 16:20, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Technical Documentation...
Do you have any guidelines on how to convert things like my notes above into something that's more like technical documentation? I can't be the only person attempting to spot coding concerns, ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 16:32, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Whoa! I think we need to adjourn to a cell phone chat or zoom or such voice for this. Item #11 was an edit I made yesterday! And why can't a span, be on a line of a list if it self-terminates inside the template wrapper? Seems illogical Mr. Spock! <g>  I'm also going to apologize for earlier tone.  I'm not happy you seem to be picking on some of by best tricks, but then we both know how bad my HTML background truly is, don't we. <g>. I just stopped sweating a moment (yard work) taking a phone call and thought I'd see if you'd replied. So having glanced at the first item and caught that bit about BL (You'll also have to pick on, and legions of other formatting typing aids I suspect. Have you poked around in those categories and taken a look at what might be feeding new issues?  When you do emergency first aid, first priority is to stop the bleeding! Then start the heart and reestablish breathing!  (At least you don't have to  do cpr on your patient!)
 * Let's chat after dark, Boston area. I need to run up to New Hampshire and should be done outside by dusk.  Email me a Zoom or Skype Link or a better time or your suggestions, and I'll be glad to go through whatever, however. Just think this will be overly cumbersome and least productive. My skype I frank.a.bartus (imagine that!) but we may have technical start up issues... haven't used it in 4? 5? years, ahem.  Not sure I ever used it on this laptop, but did get a new headset last weekend, so can go to my desktop in a pinch or the old laptop. Zoom worked well with this laptop's built in mic and sharing desktops. The desktop mounted mic is 'just okay', but expect the new headset's works well. Does in playback tests anyway.  I don't have cameras enabled anywhere, but we can share screens and problem solve looking at the same things. Zoom I used twice--once on each computer, same night--last week. I still use telephones to stay I touch with family... and mu best friends. Neanderthal, n'est pas?  Which is why an initiating phone chat might be best if it won't break your piggy bank. That will let us walk past any wrinkles in establishing net communications. Email me as noted above what you suggest. TTFN  Fra nkB 19:37, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * P.S. If you want to continuing debugging, you have my blessings. Just know some of those nesting issues per your item#1 above may be deliberate, which is breaking those 'best tricks', forsooth! If the code patrol bot is gonna hiccup on such, we'll need an alternative method. In the meantime, if you look at the -bot templates, each has a principal category, and will be closing pages with the headers... hence bookmark those and navigate to check effects from edits. As far as the BL solution is concerned, seems best to just convert it to div anyway, BUT... It's primarily used in-line as a emphasizing template. Not sure a div won't force a newline, are you?  TRC in contrast is used in-line to provide a external link in natural language formation of a sentence. So both are generally in-line elements.  If the multi-line usages of BL and such templates are illegal, someone is making a lot of work instead of minimizing it because of one dimensional thinking--selfish thinking, I think.  It simplifies THEIR job in standard writing and perhaps parsing, but doesn't use the feature in the widest possible scope, but now we're going philosophical again.  Gotta go, later! Fra nkB 19:37, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * P.S. If you want to continuing debugging, you have my blessings. Just know some of those nesting issues per your item#1 above may be deliberate, which is breaking those 'best tricks', forsooth! If the code patrol bot is gonna hiccup on such, we'll need an alternative method. In the meantime, if you look at the -bot templates, each has a principal category, and will be closing pages with the headers... hence bookmark those and navigate to check effects from edits. As far as the BL solution is concerned, seems best to just convert it to div anyway, BUT... It's primarily used in-line as a emphasizing template. Not sure a div won't force a newline, are you?  TRC in contrast is used in-line to provide a external link in natural language formation of a sentence. So both are generally in-line elements.  If the multi-line usages of BL and such templates are illegal, someone is making a lot of work instead of minimizing it because of one dimensional thinking--selfish thinking, I think.  It simplifies THEIR job in standard writing and perhaps parsing, but doesn't use the feature in the widest possible scope, but now we're going philosophical again.  Gotta go, later! Fra nkB 19:37, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
 * P.S. If you want to continuing debugging, you have my blessings. Just know some of those nesting issues per your item#1 above may be deliberate, which is breaking those 'best tricks', forsooth! If the code patrol bot is gonna hiccup on such, we'll need an alternative method. In the meantime, if you look at the -bot templates, each has a principal category, and will be closing pages with the headers... hence bookmark those and navigate to check effects from edits. As far as the BL solution is concerned, seems best to just convert it to div anyway, BUT... It's primarily used in-line as a emphasizing template. Not sure a div won't force a newline, are you?  TRC in contrast is used in-line to provide a external link in natural language formation of a sentence. So both are generally in-line elements.  If the multi-line usages of BL and such templates are illegal, someone is making a lot of work instead of minimizing it because of one dimensional thinking--selfish thinking, I think.  It simplifies THEIR job in standard writing and perhaps parsing, but doesn't use the feature in the widest possible scope, but now we're going philosophical again.  Gotta go, later! Fra nkB 19:37, 29 March 2021 (UTC)


 * You are under no obligations here (I should have said so earlier.), I am happy to continue using talk pages ( I prefer discussions stay on wiki.), NONE of this is urgent,

In reference to some point you raised in your most recent response,


 * Item 1: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T134469 is the phabricator ticket concerning the quirks in DIV into SPAN on the same line handling. It's a "known  limitation" or quirk in Mediawiki.


 * Item 2:

fails if there is a trailing line-feed in an input parameter, because mediawiki for:

Generates:

which becomes

This renders. (I checked with Expand Templates), but is considered wrong because the parser generates a blank  pair, which is not generally the intent. If that's further wrapped in a SPAN, you encounter variants of the doLevels quirk in the linked phabricator ticket, as I understand it. In some situations where the output of a template using  is itself a span, the insertion of the P can break markup unexpectedly as P cannot be nested inside SPAN. HTML5 is somewhat less forgiving of bad nesting like that. ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 00:23, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Template:ORP-top
I have reverted my changes to this template, because ORP was not working. For some reason the n paramater passed in from ORP is not being used. I've gone back to your version because I was unsure what I 'repaired' would have caused this glitch.

It seems I'm not as competent as previous comments would suggest, and would strongly suggest you re-check all the Trainz related content I've attempted to repair recently, in case the repairs have altered the logic inadvertently and unintentionally.

Other than that i am giving up on trying to repair these further for now until I can actually be sure of my own ability

Sorry for having wasted your time on this. ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 06:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)


 * I have later re-implemented because I am thinking the error in ORP originates elsewhere.

ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 13:37, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Template:ORP
This does not display any portion of the generated template in Template: namespace, Is this actually an intended choice because I did not see an includeonly in the template that would explain this? ShakespeareFan00 (discuss • contribs) 13:36, 30 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Don't follow the esoteric shade of meaning in your erudite wording! The ORP-top template is clearly working, provable on several dozen pages. ORP is used far less often, and unless my quick browse missed something, basically does link formation then calls ORP-top as a subtemplate. Perhaps you missed that, or I misread it. The stub shows ORP installed AT PAGE BOTTOM, my quick look thinks it saw ORP-bot also used as a subtemplate within ORP... if SO, I WAS PROBABLY PLAYING WITH SPECIFYING SUCH POSITIONING. I WOULD GUESS about the same time I installed the  static box (Look in the lower part of the left-margin Nav-bar) in the header templates--a feature that stays fixed when pages are rolled down. I'm saying ORP may be doing the same.  I'd have to rediscover that code secret to be sure and I don't have the time now. Further,  my usage notes would suggest it's written to allow specific link formation vice assuming a square bracketed parameter will generate that sort of internal Wikilink. That means (at this late date) it is expecting pass arguments for links to be one of the TL, TR, TR2, TA, TC or N3V Wikibook Trainz special Link templates. (Or I have that backwards and it's the opposite)
 * ;This is the likely active code... :just calls ORP-top
 * </div id="top-navigation">
 * Assuming I browsed all that correctly, ORP is for starting a page where other technical pages haven't been opened here, so can link externally to the TrainzWiki coverage of the topic. As poor as that sometimes can be, it's better than no data, so the expansion of the page is undertaken then a switch to {{tlx|ORP} and normalcy... that was the plan... at least before I fell and broke 28 bones, then twice more that year fell onto my butt, both times busting my tailbone. I'd rather have the 28 breaks again than that last tailbone break, as the nerve was excited into being actively hostile.  That happened in early December, and the next August was the first time I was able to sit at a dinner table all year, I simply had to lay on my side or hurt badly.  It took 'til July until I could sit at all, and only ten minutes then.  No way I could do even computer work!  So you're taking me down memory lane in more than one way bringing up ORP today.  Don't suppose you remember what templates I found that would be perfect for tutorials mingling lots of images and interleaved text?  Not in my mind?  Sometimes neither am I. Hope this helped. If ORP is a problem, just bracket it with a void template and the few stub pages it is on can do without for now.
 * I've got to go pull a tractor transmission or I'll have to mow the lawn by hand this summer. Time to see what damage I did in December when the clutch froze it's thrust bearing solid (i.e. into molten metal which self welded the moving parts. Fun! NOT!)
 * Fra nkB 20:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Oh, BTW -- I used the regular expression
 * ^(\s.*)$ to insert three spaces before '\1' in Notepad++, then was able to display the whole template as soon as I nowiki'd the curly-braces. (You wanted a quick and dirty method,... that's my best tip for now!) Fra nkB 20:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)
 * ^(\s.*)$ to insert three spaces before '\1' in Notepad++, then was able to display the whole template as soon as I nowiki'd the curly-braces. (You wanted a quick and dirty method,... that's my best tip for now!) Fra nkB 20:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)