Talk:Punjabi

Help Improve this book.
This Wikibook has been created to help readers learn Punjabi. Readers are requested to suggest improvements and submit materials for early completion of the book and making the book useful to the reader. Thanks in anticipation

jaspal 12:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Punjabi words
This book is meant for non-native learner of Punjabi language. I have tried to give romanised (i.e. in roman letters) pronunciation of Punjabi words. The advantage of such an approach, I thought would be ease of the reader and his guaranteed familiarity with the system. But I have not been able to acheive any amount of consistency for obvious reasons. I have been weighing various other options. One such option is to straight away adopt IPA. The other option is to fix the use of various roman letters for both Punjabi vowels and consonants and then retain the romanised pronunciation. I invite one and all to guide me in this behalf.

jaspal 14:04, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Gurmukhi is a near phonetic script. If someone has to learn IPA, it will probably be a lot of effort. Will it not be easier to learn Gurmukhi straight away start using it for pronunciation as well? Jaspal Singh 17:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you should use romanisation, but in the script tutorial you should additionally give IPA for those who are familiar with it, so that they get a better idea of how to pronounce things. And sound files would be really great, if you know a Punjab with a microphone. Junesun (talk) 20:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Teaching Punjabi and teaching the script
Good job, this page is quite comprehensive! I am wondering though if you'd like to go a step further. For example, your description of the Gurmukhi script is probably better than what could be found in textbooks usually: you divide the letters into groups and even give exercises for practise. However, I found that the easiest way to learn a foreign script, a method that can reliably teach any alphabet within 2-4 hours and without any tedious repetition, is to introduce only one letter at a time whenever possible and to provide exercises in the shape of recognizable words. See for example the approach used in the Greek and Korean Wikibooks. I can assist you in developing similar lessons for the Gurmukhi script if you like.

As for teaching the language, it would be really useful to have full-fledged lessons, so that students get exposure to the language, the words and grammar in context and in manageable bites. If you are not sure how to go about this, I'd be glad to give you some pointers and assist you in developing a lesson plan. I am a professional lesson developer for GermanPod101.com and I've also created lessons and lesson plans for various other projects, including several Wikibooks.

Best wishes,

Judith - Junesun (talk) 15:51, 9 June 2008 (UTC) Dear Jaspal,

Its great work. However, the usage of the letters 'chhuchha' depicting 'chauffer' and 'phupha' depicting 'phone' are not correct. 'chhuchha' is used as in 'chhaan' i.e shade, where for chauffer the letter used should be 'susse pair bindi'. Similarly the 'ph' in phone is more softer and pronounced with open lips, where as 'phupha' in Punjabi is pronounced with the pursed lips.


 * Thanks whoever wrote this comment. I will make the correction shortly. But just in case somebody can suggest English words for illustrating these sounds that will be great. In anticipation.....


 * Jaspal Singh 18:37, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Can ਛੈਵਰਲੇ (Chevrolet) be appropriate example of 'chhuchha' sound. In the present scheme of things ਵ, ਰ and ਲ are not introduced till lesson 5. But that will be a minor irritant if an english speaker learning Pinjabi can be helped understand this sound appropriately. Waiting for comments and advice. Jaspal Singh 05:48, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Teaching Punjabi and teaching the script
Please accept my apologies for being late in reponding. I greatly value your suggestions and the offer of help. I also agree to your suggestion for introducing script letter by letter. I must also share my plan of dividing the book into three different parts containing script, the common situational talk and the grammar in that order. This however will take some time as I devote only my free time to this voluntry effort. You are welcome to make suggestions or may also edit directly into the book.

I request you to edit the Author section at the end of the book to incorporate your self as a coauthor.

I greatly value your offer and look forward to work with you.

Regards.

Jaspal Singh 18:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Awesome! I created Punjabi/Writing lessons plan so we can coordinate planning for the script lessons. Please add any words you can think of there. I'll let you know when I have an idea for a general lesson plan (situational talk with grammar and vocabulary explanations, teaching the language one step at a time). Thanks so much for your good work! Junesun (talk) 20:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Very good job on the re-write! You found a lot of helpful English words. I'm particularly impressed with "khaki" and "Kazakh" - finding words for the /kh/ sound is hard in any language. I tried the lessons and it's already much easier to study the letters now. What would help now:

Also, if you explained the vowels before the first lesson or before the second lesson, the lessons would be much easier, because students could spend all that time recognizing and thereby practicing the vowel sounds in every single word you present afterwards. If you come across a recognizable word that only contains letters that have been presented before, it's very useful to let the student guess the word - don't just tell him what it means. If the student has to actively think and decipher words himself, the letters will stick so much better; plus it's a success for him. This is the reason I recommended teaching letters in an order other than the traditional rows, because then you can always have the student guess the words. For example, start by teaching A and give "ah!" as an example. Then, teach N and let the student guess "Anna" (don't just say it's the name Anna, let him read for himself). Then, teach M and let the student guess "mama" and "Annam" and "Manama"... it's kind of like that game where you have a word, add one letter and make a new word, add another letter and make another word, and so on. This is certainly a big advantage when learning a new script. However, I also see that the rows allow for better comparison of similar sounds like kh and gh and ghh and the like, so it's not all bad. Junesun (talk) 19:28, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * diagrams of how to draw the letters
 * sound files to illustrate the pronunciation


 * Thanks! Your words of appreciation have been inspiration and the good advice a source of strength.
 * I have moved on to vocabulary module and written some lessons there. Once I am through or substantially through with that I will for sure come back to the script so that I can make use of your technique which I am impressed with. I am also thinking in terms of relegating the grammar module to an Appendix status like I found in the Chinese (Mandarin) wikibook so that I can create some reading (practice) lessons at a more prominent position. Regards. Jaspal Singh 18:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Shahmukhi
As I understand, Punjabi is written in two scripts: Gurmukhi (Punjab, India), and Shahmukhi (Punjab, Pakistan). Maybe we could add the Shahmukhi or, if Pakistani Punjabi's vocabulary is too different than Indian Punjabi (because of probable increased Arabic/Persian word borrowings), you can specify that you are teaching Indian Punjabi. Just a suggestion. YoshiroShin (talk) 03:27, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Yoshiro. I perfectly agree. I wish Shahmukhi could be added to this wikibook. However I will need some help from my friends from Pakistan to do that. I invite one and all to add Shahmukhi as a script in this wikibook. They can add words not likely to be found in vogue on Indian side of Punjab.


 * As of now I am rewritting the Gurmukhi script part of this wikibook as suggested by Junesun above and as soon as it is complete I will give a link to it from the main page of the book and I shall add comment suggested by you. Thanks again for interest in the book.
 * Jaspal Singh 17:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually now that I think about it, I think it may be better to have two separate Wikibooks for Gurmukhi Punjabi and for Shahmukhi Punjabi because:
 * 1. It will probably get extremely crowded in this Wikibook if we had both in one;
 * 2. The vocabulary will be too different; and
 * 3. Grammar may also be altered to be Persian-like which would make this pretty much a different language. Take into account Hindi and Urdu: Urdu has plenty more Arabic/Persian loans, and sometimes utilizes Persian grammar (as seen in Qaumi Tarana ).


 * YoshiroShin (talk) 18:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, though I think Qaumi Tarana is not realy a Punjabi composition. In fact many people in India think that Punjabi spoken in Amritsar(in Punjab, India) is much more near Punjabi of Lahore(in Punjab, Pakistan) than Punjabi spoken in say Patiala. This is true also as same dialect of Punjabi namely Majhi is spoken in Amritsar and Lahore both being part of same Majha region of undivided India. I would therefore presume that as far as vocabulary is concerned there is not much difference between Punjabi spoken in Indian Punjab and Pakistan Punjab. But your other point seems valid that both scripts in one book may make it crowded. Regards, have a nice time.

Jaspal Singh 15:07, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * "Yes, though I think Qaumi Tarana is not realy a Punjabi composition." I guess you were being sarcastic there, seeing as I never said that Qaumi Tarana was a Punjabi composition, because that would be funny...................................................


 * But anyway, since you find one of my points valid, how 'bout you turn the page "Punjabi" into a page that links to "Gurmukhi Punjabi" and "Shahmukhi Punjabi", and then move everything on this page over to "Gurmukhi Punjabi"?


 * That way, both will be technically in the same book, and it will look really good to someone wanting to learn Punjabi. All he has to do is type in "Punjabi" in the search area, and then he will immediately have a choice of which Punjabi he wants.


 * I think it's a good idea.


 * YoshiroShin (talk) 00:53, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

My sincerest apologies if I have sounded sarcastic though I did not mean that. When I the wrote comment I thought you are suggesting that 'Shahmukhi Punjabi' is awfully different from 'Gurmukhi Punjabi'. By saying that Shahmukhi can be added to this wikibook what I realy mean is that Shahmukhi script can be provided as a separate part of this book. As I have emphasized earlier Pakistan Punjabi and Indian Punjabi are realy not two separate languages. Allow me to reiterate that vocabulary of language spoken on both sides of border is same though written in different scripts. Therefore it will be perfect to provide intructions on both scripts in one book, though in separate parts. But having said that the language spoken on both sides of the border is same, I wonder if it will be useful to have 'Gurmukhi Punjabi' and 'Shahmukhi Punjabi' separately. I have yet to convince myself about that. I was wondering if we can have a way out where by the same word or same rule of grammar etc. can be taught by giving both Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi versions of the word etc. Initially though it looks it will be too cumbersome. Just think about that.

Since you have taken the trouble and have shown interest in the book, I am giving here link to re-written Gurmukhi script part of the book, though it is still incomplete. Your comment shall be highly valued.

Jaspal Singh 14:28, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * How about on the main page, you place links to different sections on the book (a little like what they have at the Sanskrit Wikibook ), and at the beginning you can place a link to the "learning Gurmukhi" part and another to a "learning Shahmukhi part", and under those you can place links dividing up your language lessons and within those, sentences and words can be supplied in both Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi at the same time, and the reader can choose which to read while going through the book.
 * Another example showing this is at the Mandarin Chinese Wikibook . There, the author supplies Traditional and Simplified Chinese characters altogether in the same lessons and the reader can choose which he (or she) wants to follow.
 * Taking into account your (definitely probably correct) claim that Pakistani and Indian Punjabi have basically the same vocabulary, I think this is a better idea than the one I previously suggested.
 * What do you think?
 * Oh, and just to let you know, I don't know Punjabi, and I am actually studying Hindi, but I have an okay amount of knowledge of the Perso-Arabic script (for Urdu purposes) so I might be able to help out.
 * Therefore, I might try to add in some stuff once in a while, but the rest should be left to the Punjabi speakers (who know a lot more than I would about Punjabi). I'm just making some formatting suggestions.
 * YoshiroShin (talk) 18:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Wonderful idea Yoshiro. I will be doing that in due course, providing a stub for Shahmukhi. Meanwhile if you can let me know if you approve of the re-written Gurmukhi script I shall be able to recast the book. Jaspal Singh 15:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I actually like the format of the re-written Gurmukhi script very much. I think it's great.
 * YoshiroShin (talk) 18:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for being with me and your word of appreciation. Hope to keep up dialog in future too. Will be back with stub for Shahmukhi. Have a nice time.

Jaspal Singh 16:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Recasting this Wikibook
Based on the suggestions made by Judith - Junesun (talk) I have reworked the Gurmukhi script part of this wikibook introducing letters one by one and using example that are familiar to English knowing readers. YoshiroShin (talk) recommended that we should have Shahmukhi script as part of this book so that it is easier to serach. He himself is writing Shahmukhi lessons. I have recasted the other parts of the book. For better organization of the book the following format is being considered.


 * Punjabi Language & This wikibook
 * Writing System : Gurmukhi
 * Writing System : Shahmukhi
 * Language Lessons
 * Vocabulary
 * Grammar

Each of the above Sections/Parts of the book will have pages devoted to different lessons. Each page will contain links to all lessons contained in the Section/Part prominently displayed on it. Before actually recasting the book in the proposed format I seek suggestions to make the presentation of the book more meaningful.

Jaspal Singh 01:39, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

New Lesson
Hi, everybody. I have added one more module Vocabulary to this book and created first lesson viz., Numbers to it.

PS : Suggestions for improvement are welcome please.

Jaspal Singh 17:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool so far. If I see anything that I could provide suggestions for improvement on, I'll let you know.


 * YoshiroShin (talk) 19:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Question
Does the Punjabi/Vocabulary/Relations article just contains some of the Relations, or does it need to include every relation because there are some missing. --Gman124 (talk) 04:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The lists on vocabulary pages are not exaustive. But you may please add more items to them if you think some more will be useful for readers or let me know which ones you want so that I can do it. -- Jaspal Singh 15:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)