Talk:Public International Law/Nature and Purpose of International Law/International Law and Violence

Review, 20 May 2023
Dear Marnie,

Thank you for this lovely contribution, which I think is going to be one of the many things that make this book stand out among other textbooks. I agree with Raffaela that you can make it more concise and avoid repetitions. Regarding the key assumptions and required knowledge: I have made some suggestions in the text on how you could present your argument without presupposing too much technical knowledge (e.g., you briefly introduce the prohibition of the use of force and the main characteristics of IHL and the rest of your argument can be understood with this brief introduction if you avoid using technical terms like ius ad bellum/ius in bello). In general, I think it is one of the main good qualities of our book that we start with critical reflections so that the students already have this critical lens when they get to the more technical parts, so I would really like to keep this chapter at the beginning. This is an ongoing discussion among us editors, and right now we are leaning towards making this structure transparent in the overall introduction to the book, so that students know what to expect and don't get too frustrated when they don't understand all the details at the beginning. Regarding the 'required knowledge' section, I think the 'Critique of Human Rights' chapter solves this quite elegantly. Maybe we could adopt the same approach here.

If you are still looking for more women and voices from the Global South to include in your references, here are some suggestions: Martineau, Anne-Charlotte, Concerning Violence: A Post-Colonial Reading of the Debate on the Use of Force, 29 Leiden J. Int’l L. 95 (Spring 2016). Rajagopal, B., International Law and the Development Encounter: Violence and Resistance at the Margins, 93 Proceedings of the Annual Meeting (American Society of International Law) 16 (March 24-27, 1999). Rao, A., Problems of Violence, States of terror: Torture, in Colonial India in Discipline and the Other Body: Correction, Corporeality, Colonialism (Steven Pierce & Anupama Rao eds., Duke University Press 2006). Menon, Parvathi, ‘The Politics of Justifying Force’ in the Journal of the History of International Law: https://brill.com/view/journals/jhil/19/4/article-p525_525.xml Also: https://voelkerrechtsblog.org/were-not-talkin-bout-a-revolution-anti-colonial-struggles-and-their-unjustifications/ Claire Vergerio has also written extensively on the topic: https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/staffmembers/claire-vergerio/publications

Thank you again! I can't wait to read this chapter in its final version. Let me know if I can assist you in any way during these last stretches. Warmly, Sué González Hauck (discuss • contribs) 15:56, 20 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you dear Sue and Raffaela for your further feedback, and apologies again that only the first part of the piece is properly drafted. I am re-jigging the entire contribution to make it more appropriate for guiding undergrad students through the materials. Will endeavour to make the end of May deadline for the completed first draft for your further review. Your comments are extremely helpful. All the best, Marnie MarnieLloydd (discuss • contribs) 21:21, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Review 16 May 2023
Hi Marnie,

This is a great chapter with a lot of potential, however, I think there is still quite some work to be done (see my comments in the text for more detail). This relates to mainly three points: 1) there is quite some repetition in the different sub-sections; 2) references to the other parts of the book wehre key concepts are discussed; 3) and finally: I think it might be necessary to better introduce some key assumptions. For undergrad students, this chapter might be not so easy to follow; I suspect that you assume prior knowledge of key concepts that you use in the chapter. It might be necessary to better explain which uses of force really fall within the ambit of IL/explain the difference between ius ad bello/use in bello; which forms of violence are mainly forbidden by human rights law; also reference to international criminal law.

Best, Raffaela --Raffaela Kunz (discuss • contribs) 08:22, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Hello Alex and Monica, The Editors suggested to me to include my 'overarching question' contribution on violence and PIL as a sub-heading under the section Nature and Purpose of IL. I have for now just plonked my notes there as one of the sub-headings in your chapter for now - you should feel absolutely free to shift it to where it best fits in accordance with your planning and structure for this chapter. I look forward to discussing everything with you in due course! Thanks and kindest regards, Marnie Melldd (discuss • contribs) 18:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Review 03.09.2021
Hi Marnie,

I'm really enthusiastic both about the 'overarching question' mode in general and this section in particular, and can't wait to see where you take it! I think your notes look great and just wanted to pop in to give some input on two points you already mentioned yourself:

- Regarding the male bias in citation: The overlap with feminist work on armed conflict and pacifism might be something to draw on, both for its substantive merits and because it will involve citing more women? Gina Heathcote immediately comes to mind as crucial on these topics but of course there are many other scholars working in that area.

- Regarding the scope of the section and the notion of 'violence': I think it would be really interesting to dwell on the thoughts you mention in the final bullet point and sit with a broader notion of (not necessarily armed) violence - the everyday violence of capitalist exploitation and epistemic violence are two instances that came to mind for me. Not crucial to include those specifically of course, but just to encourage you to retain the point in general.

Looking forward to reading future drafts!

--Jens Theilen (discuss • contribs) 12:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Dear Marnie, dear Jens,
 * I completely agree with Jens, I am thrilled to read more about this section and your thoughts on the topic!
 * - Re: women, maybe it is also interesting to look into Bertha von Suttner and the origins of LOAC. Everybody is always focussed on Dunant, but Bertha was also part of a peace movement and was quite successful!
 * - Re: violence/force in order to achieve "peace": you will probably include just war-theory etc here as well? when reading your abstract I also thought about retorsion/reprisals in LOAC and beyond. Might be an interesting aspect to raise here as well.
 * Excited to read more!
 * Best
 * Anne ADienelt (discuss • contribs) 08:50, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Review: May 11, 2023
Your chapter is a great example of how language can be both clear and precise while still being enjoyable to read. It was a pleasure to dive into the subject matter. Additionally, the introductory paragraph was very well written, giving me a clear idea of what to expect in the rest of the chapter. I have made minor linguistic corrections in the text.

One area that could have used some improvement was the chapter's structure. You tended to switch back and forth between describing the problem (the prohibition on the use of force versus the permission to use force) and discussing how to cope with it. The two sections could have been more clearly separated to avoid confusion for the reader. Additionally, there were a few places where you repeated something, which could have been tightened up to make the text more concise.

A minor issue with the chapter was that it was located in the introductory section of the book but still assumed a lot of prior knowledge on some of the specific areas of international law, such as the use of force and international humanitarian law. This will make it challenging for students to fully grasp some of the ideas being discussed.

Some parts are still missing in your contribution:

- It would be great if you could finish the chapter by the end of June at the latest. The sooner you finish, the more we can review your chapter and the more time you have to use our comments to improve the chapter.

- Note also that the following parts are still missing: summary

- You could add some links to other chapters of the textbook

Max Milas (discuss • contribs) 20:39, 11 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Thanks very much Max - yes, I will take all that on board.
 * Regarding your comment about this section being in the introductory section of the book, I was wondering as well whether perhaps these 'overarching questions' might work better at the end of the book? Meanwhile, I will try to simplify the content but some prior knowledge seems necessary to be able to say anything - I think some careful linking to other chapters of the textbook can help as well.
 * All the best for now, Marnie MarnieLloydd (discuss • contribs) 02:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)