Talk:Modern Greek/LegacyLesson 11

Untitled
Hi 60.229.70.222 and 70.52.2.61 -- Thanks very much for your corrections! --Bcrowell 20:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

About γραβάτα and other loan words
The word η γραβάτα (the tie) although it is Greek, it is not from a Greek root, but a loan from Italian. Perhaps by mentioning the cognate, a misconception may be created that there is a Greek root to cravat --83.146.62.97 07:19, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll change the → symbols to ~, which hopefully will do a better job of suggesting the possible relationships (Greek from English, English from Greek, or both Greek and English from a different language such as Italian).--Bcrowell 16:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

χτενίζω
Is χτενίζω the normal way to express the idea of combing the hair? It doesn't seem to be prominently featured in dictionaries, and a google search turned up a relatively low number of hits. Is there some other wasy of expressing this that's more idiomatic? The vocabulary is neeed in lesson 6 for the reading about the battle of Thermopylae.--Bcrowell 03:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes χτενίζω is the correct verb. However, the passive voice is used. Nobody will say χτενίζω τα μαλλιά μου, they will always say χτενίζομαι. The expression (χτενίζω τα μαλλιά μου) is lyrical and is used in cases when lyricism is needed. The passage from the Battle of Thermopylae is one of those cases because it describes an epic event and a little lyricism is fine. Although one could still say χτενίζονται instead of χτενίζουν τα μαλλιά τους, it sounds a bit mundane when referring to their battle preparations.


 * In common speech the verb χτενίζω in the active voice is used when combing someone else's hair. In most cases τα μαλλιά (the hair) is not mentioned at all and the actual expression is: Η μητέρα χτενίζει το παιδί, the mother combs the child('s hair).


 * A common expression between women is Πού χτενίζεσαι; which doesn't mean "where do you comb your hair" but "where you're having your hair done".¨
 * --83.146.62.97 08:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

take off
How do you say "I take off my coat?" Do you use εκβάλλω? --Bcrowell 21:12, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Βγάζω το παλτό μου Andreas 23:03, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Prepositions used as suffixes
I don't like the hyphens in this section. Is it OK if I take them back out? In my opinion, they make the words harder to read, not easier, and the reader might get the impression that the words were really written that way.--Bcrowell 00:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Changed it :-) You are right of course.--83.146.62.97 00:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

cognates for body parts
Am I just confused about ζωή? My English dictionary says "zoo" is derived from a Greek word meaning both "life," and "animal." Is αυτί not actually cognate with "audio?"--Bcrowell 01:15, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ζωή = Life, Ζώο(ν) = Animal.

Audio (lat.)= I hear, αφτί or αυτί (ear) < ωτίον. I don't know if these are cognates, you will have to ask a linguist. Andreas 01:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The word meaning animal is ζώο not ζωή, but since the root is the same I guess it can be used as cognate. Audio is Latin, but the Latin word is derived from Greek. Same with decapitate (from Latin:capita), which again is derived from Greek. I don't know though if the reader can make an immediate connection between decapitate and κεφάλι, this is why I put a medical term using the exact Greek root. --83.146.62.97 01:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It is a fallacy to believe that caput (not *capita) comes from κεφαλή, they are cousins. English two, Greek δύο, latin duo Russian dva etc. are all derived from a proto-Indoeuropean word dwo, etc. Only the father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding thinks that everything is derived from Greek ;) Andreas 01:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, thanks for the info! I'm only using the ~ symbol in the book to mean that the words are related, not that one is derived from the other. Hm, "cephalalgia" isn't even in my dictionary. I'll just put the entries for brain and head together, so they'll relate it to "encaphalitis," which I think it probably the most common English word that more closely resembles kefali.--Bcrowell 04:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * About cephalalgia see http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cephalalgia. By the way I have never claimed Greek is the proto-language, of course it came from the Indo-European mould just like Latin, far from me these things! Perhaps you've heard of a guy named Liakopoulos? :-)) --83.146.62.97 07:21, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying cephalalgia isn't a word, I'm just saying it's so obscure that it's not likely to be helpful to the reader.--Bcrowell 16:38, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Reading
The use of you as an indeterminate pronoun is not common in Greek. Andreas 03:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Prepositions used with the genitive
This does not belong here because it is archaic and formal. In spite of the legalization of Dimotiki the actual language used today in Greece is a mixture of both. We should avoid teaching katharevousa features early on in this tutorial because they are only confusing and rarely used except for fixed expressions like εν τάξει, προς το παρόν, etc. Modern Greek is a language difficult to master because there is no standard. Every concept introduced has to be considered carefully. Andreas 04:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've cut out some of the material. I'm not completely clear on how εν τάξει and προς το παρόν fit in here, though, so it may be that this needs to be edited more. Do people today use the accusative with these pronouns? Only in speech?--Bcrowell 05:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Dozen
Although the word ντουζίνα (=dozen) exists in Greek, it is very rarely used (it was actually incorporated in the Greek language from Greek immigrants to the US). Most Greeks will use δεκάδα (=ten).

e.g. Έχω δεκάδες άσπρα πουκάμισα ("I have tens of white shirts", but actually the meaning is similar to "I have dozens of white shirts")

Also very common is the expression "καμιά δεκαριά" which means "about/around ten" and its meaning is approximately that of "a dozen". So regarding the example at the reading section, a Greek person would say Απ' το ίδιο κατάστημα θα αγοράσω και καμιά δεκαριά άσπρα πουκάμισα ("From the same store I'll buy about ten white shirts" but actually meaning "From the same store I'll buy a dozen white shirts").

Nouns in -έας
There are some masculine nouns ending in -έας which follow a bit different endings than the ones ending in -ας, because the ancient greek equivalent original subject case had the ending -εύς. Direct transliteration into latin alphabet, especially on names of mythical names, produces the ending -eus, e.g. Odysseus. These words follow in Modern Greek more or less the same plural endings as in Ancient Greek.

Some examples are: ιερέας (priest), κουρέας (barber), Αχιλλέας (Achilles), Οδυσσέας (Odysseus)

ο ιερέας, του ιερέα, τον ιερέα

οι ιερείς, των ιερέων, τους ιερείς

Therefore the plural subject case (nominative) "οι ιερέες" is wrong, and also does not sound so well. I propose to mention this difference somewhere and change the legend of the priests' image. Christos 17:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)