Talk:Lucid Dreaming/Introduction

Discussion "Misgivings about the book's approach" moved to Talk:Lucid Dreaming.

Does anyone else think that this is a little harsh when it talks about the mentally ill? It seems as though it clumps every mental disorder together and considers the brain unstable for anything. Is how lucid dreaming affects them proven, or is it just a guess by the authors? Or is this a general consensus among the lucid sleepers? --Emlnxrz 15:30, 18 June 2004 (UTC)


 * I myself have never heard of all this stuff. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 08:13, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Are they "levels" of sleep or "stages". Or aren't these actually used synonymously? --Spikey 04:53, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Synonymous. I will change all uses to levels because they are usually called levels 1 to 4. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 05:02, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * Oh, and welcome to the lucid dreaming wikibook! Got any feedback? How's your dream recall going or have you not done anything? :) r3m0t (cont) (talk) 13:22, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I haven't really tried any of this yet. I'll probably start working on my dream recall this summer or next schoolyear.  I'll be heading off to college, and it seems like a good time to start new things like a dream journal.  --Spikey 04:06, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Cool. Any feedback, please tell me. And by the way, if you become LD obsessed, the ld4all.com forums is a good visit, despite the spiritual stuff floating around in masses. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 08:24, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"We awake quite often throughout the night, but if it is for less than 3 minutes it is usually forgotten by the time we wake up."
 * Really?


 * source. Now that I look at it, it seems it only happens after some REM and not after every REM. I'll try to clarify... it's only quasi-awake (or pseudo-awake ;) ) anyway, you get hypnagogic/hypnapompic imagery which probably goes along the same lines as the dream.


 * Why can't I seem to remember hypnagogic/hypnapompic imagery?


 * I have found that it slips away as I get out of bed in the morning. Can't you remember that you have wierd thoughts, illogical, irrational etc. when you are still drowsy in bed? That is hypnagogic/hypnapompic imagery. Also voices and any other vivid odd feelings (such as falling). r3m0t (cont) (talk) 12:27, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The "I can't control my dreams" section is badly written in my opinion. I can't do it better myself, so I just complain here instead. It's not clear if it refers to lucid dreams or not (this is an introduction, most people probably haven't much lucid dream experience yet). Further, I would say there are many levels of lucidity. You might vaguely know that you are dreaming without being able to control the dream, especially in the beginning. Control is something you practice. Moreover, the connection between the Mother Theresa section is quite week. What is it really about?


 * I'm glad you realise that you're able to correct it :). I was not referring to lucid dreams, but more the feeling of "watching" a dream and not "acting" in it. There certainly are different levels of lucidity, and lucidity in lucid dreams should generally increase with practice. Now that I look at the second paragraph of that question, I have no clue why I put that in. I'll take it out soon if I don't remember, or link it in more fully if I do. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 14:43, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I believe the whole introduction feels more like a "Lucid dreaming FAQ". It answer questions newbie lucid dreamers might have rather than introducing the reader to the subject.


 * It seems to me to get the content through. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 14:43, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Dissociation
What do you think about the addition I made to the Dissociation section (things you should NOT be experiencing)? It does seem a bit scary to me, is it worth including at all?

KC 23:08, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it does seem a bit scary -- just about everything in that list has happened to me at one time or another in real life. "Finding oneself in a place but unaware of how one got there" ? I thought this happened to just about everyone the first few times they wake up in an unfamiliar place. I remember that happened when I woke up after the first time I spent the night at Grandmom's house.

Perhaps we should move the Dissociation section to a completely different page and merely link to it. Would dissociation be appropriate ?

-- anonymous

Hello from a wikinewbie! I have had many LD's and would like to offer a few comments, I have chosen to put them all here until I have more time, and hopefully sources other than my (and friends') experiences. Also please inform if I am breaking with convention in this post.

RE: "signs you weren't"...Entering a dream within a dream is a technique for better lucidity, also some of the most profound are when one already lucid enters another realm, often experienced as going to sleep when you already know you are dreaming. (one ref. would be works by Dr. Alberto Villoldo)

RE: Dissociation: I think it is scary, and maybe misleading. I think it's a great idea to have some mention here, but perhaps it could be shortened and refer to some authority on dissociative behavior. (If community thinks it's important enough to mention, then it's too important for us nonpsychology experts to advise much)
 * also on this topic, I feel that some of these things are common (if very brief), and may be a sign of personal progress. e.g. ability to see oneself as other can be healthy analization. I hate to over discourage folks on a good path, so while I'm not able to do better with this page, it strikes me as analogous to quitting playing an instrument if you suddenly play a song very well, or improvise music that is better than you thought yourself capable of.

I would appreciate knowing if I should post differently. Would it be helpful to this book to find links to forums, or maybe start a "recomended reading list" GreenTwin 18:36, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Hello to you! There is no convention you should follow in the talk pages. If you'de like to contribute to the main book though, check Talk:Lucid Dreaming first for a few basic guidelines.


 * Dreams within dreams: I've never heard of that and can't think why it would work (beyond the placebo effect). Besides, that's a different case. That's somebody who knows about lucid dreams who then becomes lucid and uses that technique in order to gain better lucidity. The fact is, generally people who enter a lucid dream from within a dream aren't really lucid, they're only dreaming that they are.


 * Community no more. I don't have an opinion on the dissociation section because I don't understand it.


 * (Why did you indent that twice?) What do you mean by "ability to see oneself as other"? What do you mean by things being brief? What is "healthy analization"? Sorry, I don't understand you.


 * There is already a "recommended reading list". It's called "Further Reading" and it's on the nav:


 * It includes links to forums and books. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 07:52, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'm a little concerned that the book presents 'symptoms' that only a few may have experienced as concrete aspects of Lucid Dreaming. Most of the list of dissociations could possibly be explained by other psychological explanations and not related to Lucid Dreaming, and yet here they are being listed as factual symptoms.

It might be better to have this introduced as things that some people have experienced whilst attempted to experience Lucid Dreaming'.

- Matt 18:15, 15 April 2005 (GMT)

Spinning?
"Attempting to spin" - what does it mean? If it means literally spin, what is so special about it? And if you use a different meaning, please elaborate.


 * Anything that gives your senses input from the dream world is fine. Spinning is a good way to "lock" yourself more into the dream consciousness, by asking your brain to generate more substance to the dream. Another way is to focus on dream visuals to make them more stable. Am I making any sense? KC 22:03, 18 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, it means literally spin. It's the sort of thing which somebody who knows about lucid dreaming would do. It's the sort of thing I do in a lucid dream, because it prolongs my dreams (see LD Using and the above post) r3m0t (cont) (talk) 06:21, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

Reasons to pursue lucid dreaming
Thanks for all the work you have put into this wikibook. When I came upon this subject initially, I had one central question on my mind. Namely, is lucid dreaming a fruitful pursuit, or merely a frivolous diversion from the transcendental purposes of life? I decided to give lucid dreaming a try. I got a notebook and began to record my dreams. I began to ponder the matter of how I knew during waking moments that I was in the physical world. I hydrated copiously before retiring. In the end I lost interest because I just couldn't convince myself there was transcendental purpose in lucid dreaming. It would be a great contribution to this Wikibook to have a more fully developed section about the rationale for studying/pursuing lucid dreaming. Does lucid dreaming enhance one's ability to understand and practice sacrificial love and to make the best use of one's time in this world? How? Why is it that the majority of discussion of lucid dreaming seems to be from a purposeless or frivolous perspective? I think all this would make a very interesting addition to the Wikibook. 216.160.223.49 21:41, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Most people take it as a "frivolous pursuit". However:


 * Some people have said that meditating (or dreaming) within a dream has felt to them particularly deep, that they found it easier to relax, etc.
 * You can try shared dreaming from it as well as attempt astral projection.
 * Considering that (healthy people) spend about 1/3 of their time sleeping and 1/4 of their time dreaming, I would say that lucid dreaming aids effective use of time. You're using that remaining 1/12 of living life at not much cost to the rest of your time. As some people have reported solving problems in dreams, you might be able to solve some of your own. Also, your artistic side is probably more "open" - pasQuale dreamed up the two most recent designs of LD4all.com.
 * I would imagine that there is not much interest in lucid dreaming for spirituality because Stephen LaBerge, who proved lucid dreaming, did not publish any mention of it in his book. Therefore people went along the "fun and silly" route. However, I don't see why this should stop you from trying lucid dreaming, because it honestly is great fun and very satisfying when you become lucid. r3m0t (cont) (talk) 07:32, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC) PS You will get more replies by joining a forum or asking on alt.dreams.lucid. Check the "further reading" section.

last section and hypnosis
I believe the last part is way off. Self hypnosis as I understand doesn't lead to any visual/etc experiences and can't really be compared with lucid dreaming. Apart from the fact that you are interacting with your subconscious on a different level.


 * Well, it does say 'If you often enter a "dream world"' . . . but I see your point. I don't have any strong feelings about it either way; if you want to remove that part, go ahead. —Tharenthel (Talk) (Contribs) 23:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

False Awakenings
The section on false awakenings really needs improvement! I don't understand what it is about. Link it or expand it, something needs to be added. -- Phyzome 22:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to clarify it some. It does still need some work, but it hopefully makes more sense now. —Tharenthel (Talk) (Contribs) 06:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Note
I've removed the reference to the "placebo effect".

The Note is really a Disclaimer. However this paragraph about the effect of your own expectations helps to avoid it just looking like a CYA move. Having said that, I think we want the Note to be nice and short.

The "placebo" reference is somewhat confusing. The paragraph is trying to make a wider point that theres a limit to how far any technique can take you; that in the end its your own attitude that determines how you dream. However the "placebo effect" refers specifically to a "pharmacologically inert" "preparation" - something that mimics medication, and is supposed to have no effect other than making someone think they're being given treatment, in a double blind trial or where there is no more effective alternative ("Headology", for the Prattchett fan).

The use of the phrase "placebo effect" could also be confused with the previous paragraph which is a disclaimer about the potentially lucid inducing substances listed later on in the book. TBH that's probably how the "placebo effect" paragraph originated, but I think my way is better :-).

Of course, since I'm editting this anonymously, haven't contributed significantly to this project etc., feel free to disagree violently and revert my change - but it'd be best if you could explain why I'm wrong.

Sourcejedi 20:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Alienation
There was a rather good thread in Dreamviews where someone explained that people are likely to associate Lucid Dreaming with "New Age" spirituality (which it is to some extent, particularly in the AP community), and therefore dismiss it out of hand. Unfortunately the appalling search facility and sheer volume of posts has rendered it lost to me right now, but I think its worth trying to work in the idea somehow - just didn't manage to do it today!

Sourcejedi 20:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Controversial:
This *needs* cleaning up. This is the first page in the book, and it doesn't look pretty.

Now the "evil spirits will take over your mind" section doesn't need the tag; yes its controversial, but its clear and explicitly mentioned in the content that this is a matter for your own belief. Labelling a matter of belief "controversial" is also in questionable taste - I don;t go around calling the belief that Jesus was the Son of God who died for our sins and rose again "controversial"; it is simply a matter of personal belief.

OTOH I can certainly see why the other sections were marked in this way - and why they weren't deleted out of hand. I'd suggest the way to treat this is as points in an argument about whether its safe to dream lucidly. I'm not saying the suggestions for help should go (e.g. the point about asking your doctor about meds if you think you've got a problem) - they're good too. I think most people will find their presence reassuring - that if they did have a problem, they would be able to find help, and its also good to show that we're serious and consider the possibility of harm - though as something which has not been proven.

Sourcejedi 20:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

*Mostly* Dead discussion
This whole book's discussion is pretty much dead, but if people have questions about Lucid Dreaming, drop a message at erik212's (me) talk page, or e-mail me at erikmuntean@yahoo.com. -erik212