Talk:Juggling/Symmetric Passing Patterns

We (Jochen and Flo from Berlin) were greatly inspired to work with Prechacs symmetric passing by Sean Gandini. Now we are about to publish a software that generates symmetric patterns according to given constraints. But who knows how many jugglers know about equi- and instant-bi-passes? Apparently Sean's document is the only instructional resource on the web to explain that. So we decided to start a wikibook, enabling jugglers to learn the system and invent new exciting juggling patterns.

If you know a more appropriate site to do this, please let me know.

I'm not sure if this is what you wanted, but I had a go at the front page... --Daniel S. 18:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

To add or not to add
Flo: "transforming upwards" confuses me, and as far as I see it doesn't add patterns. it just means "add a club to each juggler and then share/transform it", which for me is altering the original solo-siteswap and not so much prechac-transforming.

Sean: Why don’t you like this term. And not sure what usage of it you are refering to?

Flo: I think adding half the period is a handy short cut, iff you already master the transformation and the pass categories. with addition never mentioned, I believe you can explain amount of objects and pass categories with less cases. additionally I only manage to grasp the idea of Prechac if image a down-transformed digit as a shared club: I throw an object at the same time as in the solo patern, and I catch something at the same time only that it is interchanged with my partner.

Sean: I agree with the inuitive thinking behind the substractive process. Actually it seems like mathematically substraction generates all the possilble patterns whereas addition misses some. Perhaps the basic explanation would be simpler if one described it only as substraction? Ironically when i first read Prechacs article i dealt only with addition.

FLO: there could be a seperate linked page The Addition Short Cut: Prechac's Original transformation.

"subtract", "make pass" or "make pass", "subtract"
Currently, the eye-catching box says "subtracting [...] and transforming this into a pass". I like to think the other way around: make into a pass first, then subtract/add. It's really a minor thing, but this way, you never have invalid patterns in between: If a pattern is valid, adding "p" to any throw(s) yields another valid one. Afterwards, modifying a pass' value by any multiple of [pattern lenght]/[no. of jugglers] leads to the interesting staggered patterns. If you start by subtracting, you get invalid intermediate patterns though. Would anyone mind if I rewrote that section? --Hijackal 08:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

go ahead changing the order. the seperation of self-to-pass and the substraction should be located earlier with an explanation of the staggering effect, not in the example. Flo 17:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If could also be more general, mentioning that there can be more than two involved. --Hijackal 08:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a good idea to state somewhere earlier that the system is good for n jugglers with m hands each. BUT I'd love this to be an easy to read introduction for jugglers who roughly master siteswaps, so please postpone as much information as possible eto later chapters.Flo 17:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I Agree with with Flo about initially keeping it simple in order to get more people to enjoy the marvelous patterns that this system generates. Its a problem we have found attempting to propagate both these and the original popcorns patterns that the notation/mathematical aspects overwhelms a lot of people. I will put a beta version of the popcorn article on the gandini lists page. Sean