Talk:Japanese/Lessons/Word list 1

Untitled
It would be great to have some pronounciation .mp3's here :D
 * yes, please do that if you find that it would be great :) --lastguru 01:13, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The game of go is usually called いご（囲碁）in Japanese, not just ご (碁）. I recommend changing the vocab list.  ToothingLummox 05:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * OK --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Choice of Vocab
I changed quite a few of the words (and incidentally found several errors, which I fixed). Here's how I chose the vocab:
 * kept the number of words the same (I hope)


 * you can change the word count, but ANY changes here must be ported back to the hiragana lists at once. --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * kept words for every hiragana symbol (although I'm tempted to delete にょうかん (court lady) which seems like a silly word to learn.


 * court lady is an extremelysilly word to learn, but I have not able to find any other words that could replace it... --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * focussed on having lots of nouns and adjectives from the JLPT Level 4 list. These will be the most useful for simple sentences.
 * made sure adjectives came in pairs (hot-cold, strong-weak, big-small, etc)
 * eliminated some words that I thought would not be productive vocabulary at first
 * not JLPT4: せっぷく(ritual disembowelment)、ち(blood)、りゅう(dragon)、（い）ご(go)、ぜん(Zen)、etc.


 * these were not taken out of nowhere... perhaps, we were unable to find any good JLPT4 words... but these are pretty popular and good words to know, please put at least some of them back :) --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * JLPT4 but not good to memorize out of context: ああ(ah, oh, yes)、しかし(however)、おなじ(same)、etc


 * maybe... --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

To do:
 * Fix word order (alphabetization). Sometimes it was wrong, especially the voiced sounds.


 * yes they might have gone out of sync --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Further revisions? Reversions?


 * the thing is that this course is created for the Latvian otaku society to be used right now. Please note that reason for me to be hesitant to change something as the course is used by real persons, and if something changes, I need to notify them so that they could go back and recheck everything. What I did just yesterday, was to change the links I give when I release the pages (friday evening or saturday noon) to point to the revisions I approve. But thanks to you (many thanks for helping us!) I might make it a tradition to do a second release (bugfix release) a week after the first release of any page. --lastguru 10:20, 26 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Make sure hiragana pages agree with new word lists.

-ToothingLummox 07:47, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Is all of the vocab supposed to be on the hiragana pages? I just noticed that the hiragana pages don't even have all the vocab from the previous vocab list. :Example: あたらしい


 * look at the ra group :) --lastguru 07:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

So the audience for the English language wikibook on Japanese is the "Latvian otaku society"? Well, at least it's defined now. That also explains some of the special-interest word choices. -ToothingLummox 01:22, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, there were some discussions about my decision to work on English language wikibook. The motivation was to create a course useful to other people, not just to the Latvian otaku society. The reason I pointed that out is that these people are learning from the course right now, it is not like creating a paper book which will be used only when complete, but rather like TV lessons that people are going through as they are appearing. --lastguru 07:40, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I apologize for any discontinuities that my editing introduces. However, I would suggest that on balance it's worth it. New vocab will have be introduced along the way anyway, so any missing vocab can be introduced then. ToothingLummox 11:55, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It is better to have inconsistent editing, than none at all, and you are surely doing a good job correting our mistakes and improving the lessons. The local team working on the lessons had similar problems when working on their first pages, they've learned quickly, so will you, I hope. But as there is undoubtable difference in effectiveness of communication between local teamwork and discussions in the pages like this, that is why I kindly ask you to signup for Skype to fill the gap in communication. Another option would be taking out our discussions about the course to the japanese-wiki list (oh, just noticed that that you did join the list... I am sorry, seems that I had some troubles with my email filters so I did not notice your email, I will answer it later...). One thing though I wanted to state clear: the list and many of its members were actually originally working on another course (lets call it "the original course"); the course called "The New Thread" is a project I have started separately from the original course for the members of local otaku forum, and placed in this wiki so that wider community could benefit from and contribute to it. Now some of the original team are improving the new thread course, but the thing is, there are inconsistencies between conventions and guidelines of the original course and the new thread course. In your email you have pointed out ove of such, namely the pitch accent indication. It might have been a good intention to get it into the original course thread, but the new thread states clearly that "There will be no attempts to indicate pitch in this course" (from the introduction page). If you find any references to pitch accent in the new thread course, please report that to me, or delete them yourself. --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, yeah, ToothingLummox, why do you whing the romaji was missing on some of the earlier pages? It was not. Also I do not understand the motivation of changing, for example, onna to onnanoko and some other words. Do you want me to revert some of your changes? I have my reasons of making things as they are here because of the vision of how the course will be progress in future. We need to cooperate more closely, and discuss all the changes. Is it possible to reach you through Skype? --lastguru 07:59, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry about the romaji. On the あ and か pages I filled it in for all the words before I realized romaji was only being added for words containing unknown hiragana. On the other pages I supplied it only when it really was missing. I didn't replace おんな in the word list, but you're right, it seems to have disappeared from the あ hiragana page. Oops. Also, I was wondering whether you're planning to use おんなのひと when you get around to it, since it is more appropriate in normal neutral-polite conversation than just おんな. I noticed that it didn't make the word list, even though it could be formed from おんな and ひと.


 * I don't have skype, but I suppose I could get it if it becomes necessary. Do you have a syllabus or something? I've read the course outline but it's pretty vague. What exactly will be in the "basic structures" lessons (I did look at the unfinished lessons)?


 * The basic structure list is not ready yet. I will try to form some kind of preliminary list soon. --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * The order in which the verbs are being taught seems to imply that we won't have any negative sentences (based on 未然形) for a very long time. And so many important constructions (like anything requiring an auxiliary verb and probably the past tense) won't be available until the students learn 〜て in the advanced section!


 * It is supposed to be so. --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Or take the 連用形 verb section. My understanding is that the 連用形 is just a base form of the verb. Which endings, if any, are you teaching? 〜ます? 〜たい? 〜はじめる？


 * There will not be many things told in the rentaikei section. Most probably, as we are already using it, there will only be a few sentences about it. Endings that require different verb form from rentaikei will not be mentioned in that section. The good example you have is ~masu, which will appear first in renyoukei section. --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I was asking about the renyoukei, not the rentaikei. -ToothingLummox 06:09, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry. It will be explained that it is used for ~masu, ~tai, ~te (possibly, that form may be explained there), ~ta and word combinations (that includes the ~hajimeru). You don't have to think whether there will be a particular ending - the course is to go as deep as possible, so if something can be explained, it probably should be explained. And if something could have been explained but it is not, please report that, or add the information yourself. As the guidelines say, the course is not a fast way to learn the language, but rather a long one. --lastguru 11:09, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * ~te is also often explained from the rentaikei, and it could also be explained from the imperative, or for that matter, from just about any form. I understand that the course is "deep" as opposed to "horizontal" (I'm not sure that "deep" is a good idea), but there are still choices about when and how to introduce material. Have you thought about the dependencies? What needs to precede what?


 * yes, i have thought that dependencies will appear somedey :) ... I am still not sure whether to put that te form (you may see in the outline that it is placed after other verb forms; but here I just told you I want it in renyoukei). The motvation to put it in the renyoukei section is that it is formed from that form... I know I stopped on the basic structures page and I need to make a detailed planning further... will try to do that ASAP. --lastguru 14:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think -te should be taught from the renyoukei just because "it is formed from that form" historically. The sound changes are pretty severe. A good reason to teach it from renyoukei is that the students already know -masu and will use mixed -te and -masu sentences before learning rentaikei. A good reason to teach it from rentaikei is that that rentaikei is the form that appears in dictionaries- in other words, rentaikei is going to end up being the base form that students use most often. Another good reason to teach it from rentaikei is that -te and -ta (past tense) are basically the same. -ToothingLummox 07:19, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't know much on the subject, but perhaps we should teach a few words from renyoukei and show how they are related to rentaikei. We can then teach the rentaikei for for the remainder of the lessons. Sorry if this isn't possible or makes no sense; like I said, I don't know much on the subjec :) &mdash; Sik0fewl 16:59, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I think perhaps you and I are on slightly different wavelengths here. I have two books here (the popular A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar and A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar) which contain nothing but grammar explanation- some 1300 pages of it. Exactly how detailed are you planning to get? -ToothingLummox 12:29, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I know several books on Russian, English and some other languages that are about that half long, but my understanding is that these books are mostly watery explanations on something should be understood intuitively. The things like, for example, ~hajimeru verb ending should not be explained separately - they need to be understood intuitively based on general principles of language. Just now you probably think I contradict myself... I am not. The course should not be converted to a 1300 page long grammar reference book (or more... you don't have "a dictionary of advanced japanese grammar"... :) ) because (a) nobody would read it and (b) I believe many concepts may be explained differently from how they are usually explained. It should answer the question "why?", not just list everything possible. I will think of better explanation later... I need the explanation myself :) --lastguru 14:02, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * And is there any intention to teach communicative (as opposed to grammatical skills) like requesting, suggesting, asking, arguing, inviting, praising, or getting someone to repeat themselves? Spoken contractions? Or what about situational skills, like making phone calls and ordering food?


 * If possible, no exceptions will be made to the sequentiality of the course. Communicative skills will only be given at the end of the grammar course, in the advanced section (or maybe additional section will be added after it). The course outline is not at all predefined for the rest of our lives, but rather my first iteration. --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Given the order in which things are listed, it's not clear to me how anyone is going to be able to practice what they've learned. Especially when they seem to be given way too much information at the same time.


 * It must be possible for an average student to keep up with the course timeline. Any event of the course giving more information than may be understood should be pointed out and resolved. As for examples, the number of them will increase in time, as we will have something to give examples for at the learners' current level of understanding the language. --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * It is very difficult (even for the students themselves) to judge whether they have been able to absorb the material. I have no doubt that they can read through a page or two of explanation every week, but have they really learned it? Have they gained any kind of fluency? For example, they have been given a lot of vocab, but have little opportunity to use it. Most of it isn't being used in the lessons. Nor are most of the honorifics. Nor most of the ko-so-a-do pronouns.  Of course, the students can always relearn the info when they need it. But doesn't that defeat the purpose? Meanwhile important structures are avoided. I suspect that the "deep" format of the course is in fundamentally in conflict with what the learner needs when learning a language.
 * Information overload?
 * the variety of ko-so-a-do pronouns. They should at least be separated as the honorifics were into "learn now" and "learn later."
 * the use of ko-so-a-do pronouns in discourse
 * the variety of honorifics, and especially the amount of detail given.
 * the many uses of various particles. And the more complete the explanation, the less useful the lesson becomes.
 * -ToothingLummox 06:09, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * What do the students hope to do with Japanese anyway? Read manga? Watch movies? Get kanji tattoos without embarassing themselves?


 * If they want to do the last, the have found a wrong course. As for the ultimate goal of the course, it is for students to be able to communicate freely. And that also include to be able to watch movies (including historical ones) and anime. And just to put things straight, preparing students to pass JLPT level 1 is not the goal of the course. It is pointed in the guidelines as an outcome, but not a goal. If necessary, topics that are not required for passing JLPT1 will be included here without hesitation. One old discussion even accused me in trying to make a kokugaku course... :) --lastguru 05:07, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * - ToothingLummox 11:34, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I will not be available during the next like 27 hours, after that I will try to answer important these questions. for now, please read this: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Japanese:New_Thread_Guidelines --lastguru 11:45, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've already read it (and edited it, too. Nothing is sacred!), but it's pretty vague. The lesson outline doesn't have enough detail. - ToothingLummox 14:29, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You should ALWAYS have the romaji word right after the katakana/hiragana/kanji so the reader can be sure they are reading and pronouncing correctly. Learners of japanese have to practice sounding out and reading japanese just like we learned english in first grade by sounding out and reading the letters. This will help our reading proficiency by knowing that we are reading japanese correctly.

Regarding communication, it would be a good choice to use the mailing list whenever possible to discuss stuff like this. It's much more readable for long discussions like this and their are searchable archives that are very beneficial to new users who want to start contributing to this wikibook. – Sik0fewl 19:47, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

My friends and I am are MangaKa's. We go by the name Manga Dragon. We are designing a Manga but it doesn't have a name. P. S. Visit Dansol High School and meet us there. THE principal will announce that the company is needed. Can you give us unused Manga Names? Daragamer12 (discuss • contribs) 22:33, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

parts of speech
I just discovered that I miss the information about what part of speech each of these words is. I was trying to make up some examples, and noticed that there is no way students will differentiate between nouns like "kirei" and adjectives like "ookii". What do you think about this? Can somebody add this info here if you agree it is really needed? Or I am just a baka gaijin who fools himself into thinking that it is important? --lastguru 16:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think we want to add parts of speech info to every word on vocab lists. The part of speech is usually obvious from the English word anyway. Some books add（な）after na-adjectives like kirei (it's not really a noun). I think that works pretty well.


 * きれい（な）　　　　　pretty, clean


 * It's a little problematic for words like baka which are both nouns and na-adjectives. If you only want to use it as a noun, then don't add（な）.


 * Another solution is to separate vocab lists into different parts of speech, in other words have separate i-adjective, na-adjective, noun, etc. lists.


 * I also think that words like ue and naka are difficult. They are nouns in Japanese but resemble English prepositions. You could change them to 〜のうえに, I would probably just remove them from the vocab list and instead introduce them when teaching aru. Maybe we should create a small dictionary, separate from vocab lists, with all the words from all the lessons? A dictionary could contain more complete part of speech info.


 * I think a basic problem is that the students have been asked to memorize a lot of vocab that they don't know how to use. We could get away with it if we stuck to 〜masu and 〜desu, but even that is not a terriffic solution. I don't think that asking the students to memorize vocab from the hiragana lessons was a good idea.


 * ToothingLummox 18:01, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

FairyTail and Bleach
Best.... Mangas..... Ever 😊 Daragamer12 (discuss • contribs) 22:37, 2 January 2018 (UTC)