Talk:Issues in Interdisciplinarity 2020-21/Evidence in Transgenderism

We had zoom calls in the past weeks with all four group members present. We have a separate wikibooks Google Docs so that we could edit at the same time and agreed on the following: Pauline - biology, Lily - psychology, Sheryl and Kaya - social anth, introduction. Conclusion and overall edits - after the individual sections are done. LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 17:14, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * 20/11/20 - discussion of topics on whatsapp
 * 23/11/20, 5/11/20 - zoom calls
 * we also held discussions in the chat section of google docs and gave suggestions for sources for each other
 * additional calls: 11/12/20, 12/12/20

''Final things to do tomorrow: check referencing (all in Vancouver and the same format). word count 1,200.''
 * word count is on 1,238, how strict are the guidelines? I've just been through it trying to trim it down and i'm struggling!Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 12:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * edit- it's a strict upper limit so I'm going to try and go through again Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 12:09, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Its now at 1,226 Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 12:24, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i'll go through the chapter to make some final edits! we can make sure everything is perfect later when we call. LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

whatsapp discussion LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 16:39, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * sheryl: for the second paragraph in biology, the animal part might not be entirely relevant? Maybe expand on the first half for undermsculanisation-feminism (is there any definition u can give?). the other two paragraphs are really Strong evidence while this one seems a little less so?
 * Kaya: Yea I think we should focus on the social anth and conclusion now to take away words from
 * Lily: The middle para of soc anth is quite long, maybe try and cut from that
 * Kaya: I think the sentence about the guinea pigs can be deleted
 * Sheryl: can someone else cut words from soc anth?
 * kaya: I’ll look through the conclusion
 * Pauline: I can cut the thing about guinea pigs

Introduction

For the introduction, "different theories, methodologies, contexts, frameworks, research tools and ethics" feels a little redundant. Which terms would you guys prefer?LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 17:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * how about 'from different perspectives, using various methodologies and research tools' ? Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 17:54, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you! i'll go change it now LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs)
 * I agree, that feels a lot more concise Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 18:55, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

'Transgenderism can be understood as the phenomenon where a person's gender identity does not correspond to the sex they were assigned at birth.' what if we took out 'can be understood as the phenomenon' and just put 'is' for the sake of wordcount? Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 16:02, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah that sounds more concise, go ahead and change it. Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 16:07, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Biology

In the Bio part, when I talk about medical imaging methods, should I add examples? Cocowiki2001 (discuss • contribs) 17:16, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i think naming one or two would be good, it would only be a few words LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 17:12, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i'll add that now! Cocowiki2001! (discuss • contribs) 10:13, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * thank you! LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

would it help to define the term "undermasculanisation-feminism" in the biology section? LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 18:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC) also, the second paragraph seems a little less connected to transgenderism than the other two. maybe some sources linking sex hormones to gender identity? we might have to remove the animal bit if it's over the word count but i'd appreciate some input from other people.LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 18:11, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I can try to find something on it!Cocowiki2001! (discuss • contribs) 10:13, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Psych

In psych, there are issues in methodologies that could be solved using social anth maybe? Despite use of more qualitative forms of data for evidence (eg. interviews), great deal of importance is still put on scientific methodologies + empiricism leading to binary terms in interviews etc, soc anth could help expand this???Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 17:51, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i'll reword this point in the conclusion later! thanks for pointing this out. LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

In the psych paragraph, in the first line I’d recommend saying what kind of ‘rich evidence’ is being used. I.e. “providing rich qualitative evidence” or whatever suits your argument best, just to add some depth/specificity to the sentence Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 18:01, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Anthropology

Question: Is queer theory in this explored in anthropology or as another 'discipline'? What's its relevance directly to anthropology? Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 23:49, 8 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i'm pretty surequeer theory can be used by social anthropologists as a framework to understand ethnographic evidence - feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but i'll clarify that in the main section! LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 00:29, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

"A structuralist approach would use ethnographic evidence to explore the overarching structures in Brazillian society that give rise to their perspective on gender and sex." - do you think we should delete this part? it doesn't seem to be connected to the rest of the paragraph even though i'd love to give a more specific example of schools of anthropological thought. we might exceed the word count.
 * Yeah I agree, I think we can do without it. We have enough to support our argument otherwise. Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 18:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

I think the last paragraph of section needs to be condensed, a lot of it seems either repetitive or superfluous. Do you think we can get rid of parts of that section? (The paragraph that begins with "social anthropology situates[...]") Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 18:45, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * yeah i'm trimming down the word count now. i'll take some of it out, thank you! LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i've removed "Although all three disciplines are previously dominated by white, male and upper class members of western society, social anthropology actively aims to decolonise past theories and schools of thoughts so that evidence is less biased.", but we still need to cut a bit more of the word count. i think positionality of the ethnographer is important because it would affect understanding and analysis of the ethnography, so i would prefer to keep that part in. what do you guys think? (keep in mind we're currently about 100 words above the limit.) LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:40, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Conclusion

Ideas of connections between disciplines and their methods: In Bio the twin study design yields some limitations as the instruments used to measure gender identity may be confused with gender expression --> I believe this distinction could be made clearer with the help of Psychology and even social anthropology which shows the need for interdisciplinary research? Cocowiki2001 (discuss • contribs) 13:04, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Gender identity= what the person identifies as, gender expression= what gender the person is ‘recognisable as’, ‘presents as’, dependent on social expectations and knowledge of stereotypes/social norms of other people as well as the individual
 * Psychology could help-uses social experiments with children as participants (key time in establishing stereotypes + schemas)- as the expression and identity are more social constructs and not biological ones psychology obtains evidence from views and opinions of individuals via interviews etc rather than ‘instruments’- evidence is subjective not objective, so perhaps more appropriate to use Ed Ardizzone (discuss • contribs) 17:48, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i've added all your points to the conclusion! we just have to cut some more words in the main paragraphs because i think the clash in evidence is quite important. LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:57, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Just a thought on the concluding paragraph; I think if we want to keep the heading "application of evidence" we might want to talk more explicitly about the real-world implication in which this evidence could be applied and is relevant (e.g. policy-making on discrimination based on gender identity, general societal understanding/tolerance of transgenderism, etc.) Let me know what you guys think Wildharvestvalley5 (discuss • contribs) 04:00, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree Cocowiki2001! (discuss • contribs) 10:13, 13 December 2020 (UTC)
 * i've changed it to 'integration of evidence' if that works better? LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:57, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

thank you for all the points guys! i'll edit the conclusion now and we can all read through the draft later in the call. LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 15:20, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Other

I've added my section from the google doc, ik it still has some random notes in it so I'll take them out once I edit it- I think we're quite a lot over the word count though, also, do we think my section highlights limitations too much, should I change it? I thought the limitations would be useful to talk about the clashes with other disciplines but now I'm not sure
 * we can go through that in tomorrow's zoom call! i think it'll be helpful to pinpoint where the main clashes are and edit our sections so they support the conclusion of where the main difference/similarities in evidence is. LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 23:17, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

i edited the formatting of the discussion so it should be a bit easier to read now! LittleSpadePerson (discuss • contribs) 18:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)