Talk:Hungarian

Audio
Can anyone add audio to lesson one? It would be awesome to download pronunciations so new students could study them. It just takes a second and a cheap microphone that you probably have lying around =). I'd do it, but my Hungarian isn't good enough for an ideal pronunciation. ErikG 19:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I can and have made audio files, but apparently .wav is not an acceptable file format. They're at hpmaniacs.com/Other/audio, in case you're interested. Emiellaiendiay 05:44, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

Exercise
We should create exercises for Lesson 1

Present tense
Duh! This is needed, and we could roll that into basic endings like the accusative ErikG 19:26, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Join forces
I (FerKo) am trying to help, first attempt to add on audio of Hungarian sounds, others may follow. I am more inclined to follow a differnt path in the arrangement of the curriculum. We could discuss it when I am not at work. Cheers 155.192.0.234 10:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC) see http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hungarian:Lesson_1

Overall plan
Hi, I'm interested in this project. I'm not a native speaker, but I am a language teacher and learner. I started thinking about the order in which I think Hungarian should be taught. I'm writing that into an overall plan, including the things I wish someone had told me early on! It'll probably take me another 2 or 3 weeks - I'll publish it here on the talk page for comment when I've finished. Gailtb 22:18, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Rationale
Don't be daunted by the size of this! I don't have any expectation that more than the first few lessons will ever be written, but I wanted to make sure that things were in a logical order. It also ended up as a personal revision session - I had no idea I knew so much!

The following principles were important in the planning:
 * 1) Grammar is ordered using the criteria of simplicity and usefulness. Of course these sometimes conflict, so this is just what I think will work.
 * 2) Thorough practice is needed in the sound system. (Note, there is often no direct link between the grammar and the sounds in any lesson.)
 * 3) Suffixes are introduced slowly to give a chance for them to be practised and start to become automatic

Suggested lesson structure
I've taken ideas from other language books such as Chinese (Mandarin) to give the following:
 * 1) Dialogue /text - shows the language in context
 * 2) Grammar /functions
 * 3) Vocabulary
 * 4) Sounds
 * 5) Exercises

Although I mostly haven't filled in the columns for vocab and exercises, these are essential. Vocab without grammar can make for successful communication. Grammar without vocab cannot.

In order to be a textbook rather than just information in an encyclopedia entry, it's important to include examples and practice in each lesson. For example, lesson one could have example 2-line dialogues of exchanging greetings, etc.

Reorganisation
There was lots of stuff on the welcome page which was or should have been in lesson one, so I've moved /removed it.

I've also changed lesson one to fit my suggested structure, and made some changes for linguistic accuracy (eg vowel harmony is most definitely not grammar, nor is it unique to Hungarian).

My grammar questions - can anyone help?
1) I know the following suffixes use the oblique stem:
 * accusative, eg levelet, falvat, tavat
 * plural, eg levelek, falvak, tavak
 * 1st sing possessive, eg levelem, falvam, tavam
 * 2nd sing possessive, eg leveled, falvad, tavad
 * 3rd singular possessive, eg levele, falva, tava

Is it used for any other suffixes, eg -n for 'on'?

== It depends on the noun type. You can use the same oblique, as you put it, stem to produce plural (levelek, kezek).

2) Does the object have to be singular for -lak/-lek or can it be plural? == No, you can say 'ismerlek titeket'.

3) I think there's a difference between English and Hungarian something like a singular noun is used when plural possessors each have one of something (eg 'a féjünk' = 'our heads'). Is this correct? Does it only apply to parts of the body or does it apply to anything, eg 'a tollunk' = 'our pens'? Or does it only apply in certain grammatical contexts, eg 'We all shook our heads.' == Plurality of the possessed object is marked on the object itself. Cf. Elvesztettük férjünket vs. Elvesztettük férjeinket.

4) When -ott/-ett/-ött are used for position at a place, what are used for movement to and from? (eg Is it Győrre and Győrről?) == Depends on the composition of the proper noun. E.g., if it contains 'vár' (castle), you may have to use -ra and -ról, but with Győr, you only use -be/-ből, unless you convey a different meaning (beszélgettünk Győrről).

5) Is -vá/-vé also sometimes used on adjectives to make adverbs as well as being used on nouns? == Yes. (Hasonlóvá, igazzá, naggyá).

6) What does -stul/-stül mean? == The 'associative' suffix, meaning 'along with', 'complete with'. Make sure to add the possessive mark in between. Cf. ház - a - stul (together with the house), férj-e-stül (together with the husband). [kfabricz@vnet.hu]

Detailed plan
Gailtb 00:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Re: Grammar questions
Hi! Short answers for the questions in the 'Grammar questions' section: 1.) The nouns with -n:
 * Usually, they use the "normal" stem…, eg levélen, falun;
 * but there are some exceptions: eg tavon (not *tón)

Some other suffixes (cases) (like the sociative case, distributive case, etc.) also use the oblique stem.

2.) I'm not really sure I understand this. If -lek/lak is used to form the "Subject:1th sing; Object:2nd sing/plur" case^1 of a verb, the object can be plural (eg nagyon szeretlek téged = I love you /sing/ very much; nagyon szeretlek titeket = I love you /plur/ very much)

3.) You're right, it's 'a fejünk', not a *fejeink. It may also apply to other things (like tollunk, kárunk, eszünk). There may be some exceptions though, but now I couldn't mention any. :-)

4.) Yes, it's Győrre and Győrről, Pécsre and Pécsről, etc. (''Sorry, I didn't notice that you were talking about "movement". The correct answer is in the section. --194.152.154.2 00:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)'')

5.) -vá/vé is used on adjectives (as well as on nouns), but I don't think that it's used to make adverbs.^2 Stupid examples:
 * "A Head&Shoulders /sampon/ széppé varázsolta a királynő haját" [széppé = szép (adj.) + vé] → "Head&Shoulders /shampoo/ made the Queen's hair /look/ beautiful";
 * "A boszorkány békává változtatta a királynőt" [békává = béka (noun) + vá] → The witch turned the Queen into a frog.

6.) -stul/stül: It is used to form the Sociative case, and as you can read in the enWP article it's now considered obsolete. An example: "Tartsa meg a házát, udvarostul, az ezer aranyat meg ráadásnak." → "Keep your house, together with the yard, plus the thousand red golds /money/."

^1,2: I'm not an expert in grammar, so I don't know the correct terms for these (not even in Hungarian). :-)

--194.152.154.1 00:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: Győrre/Győrről
In response to question 4.) above: both "Győrre" and "Győrről" sound rather strange to me (in this sense), though I wouldn't call them wrong. "Győrbe megyek" or Győrbe költözöm" sounds a lot more natural to me. Similarly, "Győrből jövök" or "Győrből származom" is the form in my idiolect. "Győrre" is of course the correct form when saying for example "Győrre gondolok". Let me add that I'm a native speaker living in Hungary.

Elekmathe 14:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Good insight is not enough :(
The plan seems alright (though I don't speak Hungarian and I merely know a little). Now, the problem is it looks like nobody cares. Something has to be wrong with Hungarians and I've no idea what that might be. It's amazing for how long they haven't put the slightest effort to EXPAND this Wikibook. Maybe they just don't want foreigners to learn their native language? Isn't it great when your mother tongue is spoken by ten million people in your country and understood by approximately a thousand or so peasants in the remotest parts of Northern Russia? Oh, yeah, DEFINITELY!! As a Bulgarian, who encounters no difficulties when communicating in countries such as Serbia, Macedonia, Croatia, Bosna and Herzegovina, Montenegro, and Russia, I'm really amazed at how this people appear to treat the topic. Albeit not the best example, the Bulgarian Language Wikibook could give you an idea at how you should appreciate your language. I realise you probably hold Hungarian in high esteem yet I can't tell that from your Hungarian Language Wikibook. In this regard I beg you to endeavour to improve it! MarkovV09 12:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Re: Győr
Hungarian place names ending in -m, -n, -ny, -j, -r, -ly, take the -ban, -ben, -ba, -be, -ból, -ből suffixes.

Re: Good insight is not enough :( ... but polemics are even worse
Ah, please, refrain from the polemics. This wikibook is not excellent, so that must mean that Hungarians (every single one!) do not care about their language! Ridiculous. Maybe people who care about the survival of Hungarian are working to establish and maintain Hungarian language schools for children where the language is under threat of extinction or in decline - Romania (Transylvania, Moldova), Serbia, Ukraine, etc.

But they do not do these things. So there is some problem with the Hungarians indeed (just look at the stance of the Hungarian Wikipedia sites.) I try to help you (I am native) but maybe there are three or four people here who are Hungarians. So far I was doing the Swedish wikipedia, because I thought that there are a lot of Hungarians here - so proud as they are of their knowledge and so few they share. That is what's ridiculous... Svenskafan 21:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not many Hungarians know that the Wikibook project even exists. And even if they know, few are trained to "teach" Hungarian as a foreign language. --194.152.154.2 00:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone adept in grammar??
hi,

I started expanding Hungarian Wikipédia and Hungarian-related articles in foreign Wikipedias a month ago but nowhere experienced such negligence. It's outrageous that such a great and widely appreciated language doesnt have a proper wiki language book... really. Anyone - be native or not - who is adept in grammar to join me in expanding this stub? - Tylop 15 July 2006

Well I started to revamp this book if someone who considers himself/herself a linguist decides to check its correctness, I'd be very glad - Tylop

Omitting "van"
Hungarian/Lesson_3 I'm not a linguist just a Hungarian, but are you dead sure, that we use the substantive verb (van) in 1st person. I don't say Én éhes vagyok, but simply Éhes vagyok.. And the same applies to 2nd person, too: Éhes vagy. (or Éhes vagy? or Éhes vagy! :-) ). I just ask before correcting, because it is so well described there, that maybe there is a similar rule but the example is wrong and I misunderstood. Do you guys agree that we (nearly) always omit "van"? - User:Totya 2006. Oct. 4 16:47 UTC

"Éhes vagyok." - It's not (the 1st person of) "van" that is omitted, it's the word "én" (I) that is missing in that sentence...


 * When the "be" verb functions as the |copula in the third person (otherwise van, vannak), it takes a zero form; that is, it does not appear, e.g., Géza katona (Géza is a soldier), ő éhes (s/he is hungry), etc. More on this in the zero copula article on Wikipedia. 78.92.27.196 (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


 * In your examples you didn't omit the verb 'van' but the personal pronoun. Personal pronouns are omitted unless the emphasis is on them e.g.:
 * {| class="wikitable"


 * -Ki éhes? || -Who's hungry?
 * -Én éhes vagyok. || -I'm hungry.
 * } --Zslevi (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * -Én éhes vagyok. || -I'm hungry.
 * } --Zslevi (talk) 14:29, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Please upload pronunciation of single words to Commons. They will be used in Wiktionary. But please do it right: examples in and. --Derbeth talk 09:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)