Talk:German/Lesson 9

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I think this is all great work. But I do not see how it really differs from what we already have conceptually in the lesson layouts (Lessons 1-7). The "topic" (clothing/shopping for clothing) is really a theme, not the "topic". I would suggest that one topic (really a concept) you have brought into this lesson is that of separable verbs, modal verbs, irregular verbs. These are not in any way required or special to the theme, but are things you conciously or unconsciously see as points to bring up because there are good examples in the theme conversation. It is more sensible from a learning perspective to decide where these types of verbs should first be discussed in the book, then develop that lesson. Maybe that IS what you have done here, but your comments seem to suggest that this is somehow a good theme for the lesson on complex verb forms. But any theme could be used for that purpose. Since that is the case, it is better to lay out the grammar lessons in a sensible progression and then fit themes into the grammar lessons, not the other way around. When I read your suggestions I think you clearly understand the difference between themes and concepts; but you seem not to cover the fact that any concept has to have a certain amount of groundwork laid first (that is mostly what is happening in Lessons 1-5 now). For examplesd: In this lesson you introduce the accusative case, accusative case articles, and complex verb forms. It seems to me we already have subjects like accusative case (introduced with pronouns) and articles in various cases in the early lessons, but certainly could not start right out with complex verb forms before Lesson 5. Are you suggesting this as an early lesson or a lesson for beyond Lesson 6?

Also, I've tried to set up certain structural constants in the textbook: Vokabeln, Grammatik, Gespräche. These need to be followed as layout guides. They are pretty accommodating to any variety of things that can be fitted in, but you are suggesting just using a different structural element that may or may not offer improvement (just different). I'm reluctant to move too far away from the existing structure for the reason that a good deal of time and thought has gone into the layout. In this lesson, you have the Gespräche (two different ones) and several Grammatik, so in that sense the lesson follows the basic structure. The "1 Clothing Vocabulary Introduction" does not. However, it is the sort of thing that could be handled as in Lesson 3 where words (numbers) form the Lernen. I do not think this eliminates the need for a Vokabeln somewhere in the lesson. In fact, although the title says "Clothing Vokabulary" it is really just a list of nouns, and you have a separate section for "Clothing Vocabulary ~ Verbs" further down, then 3-3 "Clothing Vocabulary ~ Other Words" at the very bottom.

Your 3-3 Prices just sits there without any structural reason (concept) other than being two words related to shopping (should be in 1 at the top). Why not just make sure both words appear in the stories? Students should be clever enough to understand how "cheap" and "expensive" might fit into a shopping trip.

I have no problem with improving the book however you suggest it can use improvements, but you need to be very specific about problems that you encounter. Hansm also started out by stating everything was just too hard for a beginning student to comprehend, and then developed a nearly equally difficult lesson as an example of an improvement. The lesson was very good and I found places in the textbook to use it. And he was right about the early lesson difficulty; we all have worked towards making the early lessons easier, mostly by making the German sentences simpler and reducing vocabulary. I think there is still room for improvement there. But I disagree that any major structural change is called for. I have several textbooks (highschool and college) that I use to gage where concepts should be introduced. We are a bit ahead of the highschool level text at the moment, but just a little bit. One book I have does rely heavily on themes (as you suggest). It also has pages of naked German (that is no translations given in the text other than the vocabulary near the end of each chapter) in every lesson. In some cases, a German page is followed by an identical page in English. These are approaches I've not much used here. The college level text is strictly chapter by chapter on grammar topics: case, tense, verbs, prepositions, etc. Way too difficult to serve as a beginning textbook but a very good reference (the Appendices here can be more like this approach).

My conclusions: Themes are good. We can use them. We do not need to use them exclusively. We do need to have more simple German material to introduce the student to German: simple poems and stories, perhaps from the public domain. The most difficult thing to do is outline how grammar concepts are going to be introduced. Themes are a way to keep the material interesting, but the grammar concepts have to follow a logical progression. I may not have that progression down just right yet, but I think the book is close for the first 5 lessons.

Here are comments moved from off the page:

You are looking for shoes. You enter a shoe store and approach a sales clerk (do auf Deutsch; student already knows how to speak English - Marsh). I think this is an appropriate variation. Making it all German will only force us to add vocabulary and stall the lesson. Also, there is a need to keep the conversation basic and to the point. - SamE
 * Opportunities to add vocabulary related to your theme is not stalling the lesson. Student needs as much exemplary German material as we can squeeze in. Any student in a hurry can skip over whatever; but not likely to learn in that case. And I prefer to keep the other themes going that have been developed earlier; those involving characters in earlier lessons. That is one of the overall themes here. You should write a brief intro to this conversation in German as to what Katrin is going shopping for. That way you can squeeze in many of your other clothing nouns! It is not enough to just give the words. They should appear elsewhere in the lesson for reinforcement - Marsh 02:09, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * This book is a German - English book, not the other way around. We need to teach from the standpoint that we are translating English words, phrases, etc. into German. Too often, mainly because of the vocabulary system of presentation, are we simply translating a German sentence into English. We should be answering the questions like "How do you say...", not "What does that mean?", because it would take less explanation and you can stay on the subject. For example, if you simply give someone a paragraph in German and a vocabulary list, they would eventually ask you why it works that way, why the words have the endings they have and/or how you say that. If you teach them how to say something, then have them translate an English paragraph into German, they will ask only, "Is that right?". Then we can provide an answer key and the lesson will progress faster. Anyway, I think we should provide English in the text so they can know how you translate something into German, not try to figure out how you take something in German back into English, even though they may already know the English we give them. - SamE 00:24, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with you up to a point. The fact is, that learning another language requires emersion in that language&mdash;preferrably in a speaking environment;secondarily in a written environment. Your "German - English" explanation is wrong. If it were English-German, the explanatory text would all be in German and the example sentences and stories would be in English with (in some cases) and without (in other cases) German translation. Pick up a texbook on this subject and you will see that the way I have set up the lessons is pretty standard. But of course we also need more English that the student must translate into German.  I have recently completed such an exercise at the bottom of Lesson 2. I have also observed in textbooks that the more advanced the course, the more material presented in the learning language without translation provided (My graduate level course in German was all stories in German - no translations except for footnote help with idiomatic phrases and the like). So your thoughts are probably more valid for the beginning German lessons you want to produce. Those would have, I suspect, close to a 1:1 ratio of German:English. All sentences would be given in both German and English, with perhaps short pieces in only German - Marsh 01:57, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * My point is, we are teaching people familiar with English German. We should tell them what the familiar English phrases mean ("How do you say...") rather than present them with German and set them at turning that into sensible English. The textbook I refer to and check back with often is a beginner's level one textbook from Holt Rinehart Winston. It is not really 1:1 with the English and German; one other thing they include is a lot of pictures instead of English words. Our biggest disadvantage that we have is that there is no teacher to explain things. I thought that we could have a Q&A page for students that are confused. They would type their question and we could answer it as if we were the teachers. Even other students could respond. - SamE 19:00, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Again, I think what you are describing is the approach you want to try with beginning German. Get that first lesson up a running and I will work out links from the cover/contents to it. If you want to include there a link to your email for Q&A you can try it, but I'm not prepared to respond to stray questions. And I point out that the book(s) are not likely to be much used until they get much closer to completion - a future event too far off for me to really contemplate 8^). But you can try it and see if you get questions - Marsh 17:16, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I started the first lesson; I see you've been to it. I also started a Q&A at German:Beginner's Q&A. It doesn't use my e-mail, rather, students can edit the page to ask questions. I agree with you that the book is not close to done, but it would be neat if people could ask questions about the development of the site, such as if there will be practice problems, as well. - SamE 23:19, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, having the editablwe page should work and it would be neat if "students" would ask questions. Remember, most others can ask or comment about developmental stuff on the Talk: pages. I have been working on getting the books linked together in a logical way through their Level TOCs. - Marsh 00:55, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)