Talk:German/Introduction

Untitled
Isn't Dutch easier for English speakers? It's definitely closer. The problem with Dutch is however that its speakers tend to speak English quite well - and they like to do it. It can be hard to reach a sufficiently high level to be responded in Dutch, and thus to really learn the language by talking and listening to people. Guaka 23:27, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC) -

Vocabulary
Our vocabulary is very spread out, based on whatever anyone felt like sticking in the example texts. This is a problem, because if someone wanted to look up a word, they would have to search through every lesson. Of course, we are not a German-English dictionary, but I believe we should definitely group our vocabulary lessons by topic, such as food, sports, furniture, school supplies, school subjects, weather, tasks, or math, either in an appendix or in the lessons and advanced lessons themselves.

We also should make an attempt to teach more than just grammar in the opening lessons. Outside viewers will not want to see only hardcore grammar as they learn German. They also need practical applications for the grammar we give. We could, for example, teach months and days of the week along with the ordinal and cardinal numbers in Lesson 3. Then, we could include more stuff such as the translations for yesterday, tomorrow, or how to say, "My birthday is...", "When is...?" and give them numerous examples. This kind of change would do three things for us:
 * 1) Provide some practical applications in conjunction with the example sentences.
 * 2) Allow us to put more useful vocabulary in the right spots and organize it.
 * 3) Beef up our lessons to a satisfactory size. - SamE 16:11, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I have attempted to have themes for each lessons, but it has sometimes gone astray as a result of moving stuff around so much; but it is a good idea and can certainly be contributed to much more. I would not change too much more in the first five Basic lessons as they seem pretty full in most cases already (except your idea of adding a few more "practical" example sentences seems like a valuable one). This idea is especially one that can enhance the Advanced lessons (for an example see Grammatik 3-6 where more details of telling time are intended). Perhaps if, in lessons yet to be developed, a topic vocabulary were develped first&mdash;see Lektion 7, where someone added both higher numbers/math and colors as "vocabulary themes" and I have been editing within those topics). If the vocabulary were worked out first, the rest of the lesson ideas could be adapted arouind the theme.
 * The idea of having (in the conversations and stories) a businessman (Herr Standish), younger student (Karl and Heinrich), and college students (Markus, Helena, and Katrin) was for continuity and to allow themes to develop as you suggest. For example, the businessman is English and travelling around German-speaking Europe. Thus allowing for developing "travel" or "tourist" themes.
 * As for looking up words; the vocabulary is not intended for that purpose and an appendix would be best suited for that. I've toyed with the idea of having a dictionary of just the words we use in the lessons within a German-English English-German dictionary as an appendix, but that would be a lot of work?
 * My idea in the first lessons is to get the very basics of grammar laid out. When I took German many times many years ago, it was painfully obvious to me that my lack of understanding of English grammar was hurting my ability to learn German. Later I was placed in a language emersion situation for another language: Gilbertese (I-Kiribati). Again, until I got a good grammar book on that language, I could not learn it despite being daily surrounded by native speakers. While I agree with your sugestions, the heavy grammar stuff in the beginning is really important for English speakers to understand before they can begin to learn German. - Marsh 17:43, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Finally, we should make learning vocabulary more than just a list at the end of the page. We should include more than is just in the example sentences, or, better yet, put the vocabulary in the middle of the lesson. This would give our readers a break from grammar and at the same time make them actually learn it, not just look to it as a reference. People will skip it and think it an afterthought if it's left to the end of a lesson. - SamE 16:11, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)
 * We can certainly try to move the vocabulary from the last thing on a page. I disagree students will think it an afterthought, since most lessons start with a story or conversation that requires the student to constantly refer to the Vokabeln to read. But there is no reason we cannot have more than one Vokabeln per page.  Say one that follows the story or conversation with just those newly introduced words, then another at the end or at least further in to pick up any new words encountered as the student moves through the lesson.
 * Nice to see you are taking some ownership here. We have lots of lessons to go, so there is plenty of opportunity to steer things in the directions you are suggesting. The first 5 Basic lessons, while not "done", are getting near to completion&mdash;the Advanced lessons for each still need lots of work. Also, when you have time, add something on the German: Contributors page about yourself. - Marsh 17:43, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I split the Vokabeln in Lektion 1 as you suggested, and I do like it better that way. The vocabulary is smaller and more accessible to the task that way, rather than having the whole thing at the end - Marsh 18:38, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Some lessons, such as Lesson 4-1 are, in my opinion, horrible for the opening topic on any page this early. If this is a textbook for beginners, why is the whole introduction and conversation in German? I'm sure students would get frustrated with having to check the vocabulary, but they also need a more basic conversation and a slow, formalized introduction to words, word order, and certain topics.
 * Lesson 4 is still a little rough. For example, the conversation section is yet to be developed. However, I disagree it is "horrible". It has grammar lessons that are very much related concepts: it introduces adjectives, then covers the possessive adjectives, combining the previous lessons' on case by linking adjectives, possessives (especially possessive pronouns), and the genitive case&mdash;therefore completing the four lessons on case as applied to pronouns and nouns. It includes indefinite articles because these have yet to be introduced (definite articles are introduced in Lesson 3); This grammar lesson then lays the groundwork for ein-word endings (must follow intro. to adjectives). The last lesson on personal pronoun gender could be moved up anywhere (even up to Lesson 1). This is about the right place to introduce adjectives, but the other concepts could be delayed for a few lessons. Anyway, until a "theme" is developed, each of the grammar lessons here can stay or be moved where they appear to fit in logically. The theme here was to be (but need not be) that Markus is selling some personal stuff at a flea market. But feel free to change that theme. Below you list themes, which are a good idea.  However, I am trying to weave the characters together, so it would be nice to stick with that "theme" as well - Marsh 22:28, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I did not mean that the whole lesson 4 was bad. I meant that the idea of a flea market, selling items, describing that, etc. introduces too many open ends in our work. We would probably have to introduce a whole bunch of new vocabulary. - SamE 18:52, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * By all means scrap the whole Flea Market idea! It is far to little developed to be worth keeping if you have something better in mind. I was trying to come up with something that would have lots of adjectives (and possessive adjectives) to push that part of the lesson. I'm sure you can do better. Maybe expand on Katrin's refrigerator; was empty, now contains.... - Marsh 19:51, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * A family intro (or in-depth lesson) could go well there. It would have a lot of possessives (meinem Vater, seine Kusine, etc.) and we could even have the student describe their family members (either physically or their characteristics (freudlich, faul). This would make for an interesting lesson. But I'm not so sure how to introduce it all in a story. - SamE 14:15, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I can get it started if you want, then you can move the story along. Give me a day or so. I had to go to Maui today on business, and my car had problems when I got back and left the airport - Marsh 05:57, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * The introductory conversations and stories are in German to force the student to face the real world of language learning. If everything were simultaneously translated for him/her no learning would take place.  Each lesson should contain lots of sentence/word examples with English alongside to satisfy what you are suggesting.  But being forced to read German and "look up" each word that is not understood progresses the student towards reading German on his/her own. I think the lessons do have "a slow, formalized introduction to words, word order, and certain topics." Not every lesson is perfect or complete in this regard, but what you describe is what is in there. Indeed, if you look carefully, the lessons introduce grammar concepts one at a time and develop these only up to a point.  More detail is provided in the Advanced lesson, and each grammar lesson will likely reappear later for more complex treatment - Marsh 22:40, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * My vision of vocabulary is that it would help the student form their own sentences. It is not to force the student to simply look something up, instead for them to make their own observations about the surround. To fully understand something is to apply it correctly in new places. - SamE 18:52, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * That is a good point, and I can see how having a theme could enhance that approach. What about this idea: Within a lesson such as the clothing one (would work anywhere really), have a numbered list of English sentences. Instruct the student to put these into German. Have another "answer" page, where the student can go to compare his sentences with correct ones. I agree, it is important to have the student do more than translate German to English. Learning to speak (as opposed to read) German is going to require another approach on top of what I presently have; another structural subsection - Marsh 19:51, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Below is somewhat of a sign-up like the one above for the vocabulary and application topics. - SamE 22:28, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Topics to be discussed


 * 1. Clothing
 * 2. School supplies
 * 3. School subjects
 * 4. Tasks/Jobs
 * 5. Gifts
 * 6. Food (several lessons could cover this)
 * 7. Invitations: Accepting/declining
 * 8. Team Sports
 * 9. Field Events (track)
 * 10. Appropriate "Wie geht's" responses
 * 11. Weather
 * 12. Movies
 * 13. Places to go
 * 14. Making plans
 * 15. Family members
 * 16. Directions, how to get places
 * 17. Furniture
 * 18.
 * 19.
 * 20.


 * While I agree that having pages or lessons on themes are nice (the following are already themed: Lesson 1, Lesson 2, Lesson 3, Lesson 5, and Lesson 7) the idea that a student will somehow greatly benefit from having all the words about a particular subject (like shopping) is over-rated. Themes help build interest, but language learners do not necessarily group new words according to any of our ideas about themes. I think numbers, colors, foods, sports might be naturals, but movies, making plans, gifts are just among interesting things that could be discussed and around which grammar lessons could be developed.  Indeed, for these latter, any lessons could be applied and examples drawn from the story or conversation used to set the theme.


 * Your examples below are subjects to be covered, and really not in any special to the themes you list above, with a few exceptions (for example, numbers - see Lessons 3 and 7) - Marsh 22:28, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Grammar topic that would go well with


 * 1. Accusative Case
 * 2. Math topics
 * 3. Zuerst, zuletzt, nun, other adverbs
 * 4. Müssen, Helfen verbs
 * 5. Dative case
 * 6. Essen (obviously), bekommen, other verbs
 * 7. einladen, seperable verbs
 * 8. spielen, could be used near beginning as an intro
 * 9.
 * 10. Phrases as in German: Appendix 2
 * 11. Enough to be its own Lesson
 * 12. mögen, paired with next one
 * 13. gehen, einkaufen, wollen, möchten verbs
 * 14. could be paired with #13, #4, or #7
 * 15. Possessives
 * 16. Commandative form
 * 17. Describing things
 * 18.
 * 19.
 * 20.


 * I'm totally unclear on how you would handle some of these lessons. Above you suggest things are too complicated (for which I suggest, we could spread the introductory grammar lessons out over more lessons), then you suggest a whole lesson of just certain verb types. Not that what you suggest are at all bad ideas, but No. 4 for example would need to follow after introduction to verbs as a part of speech (now in Lesson 2), and basic verb conjugation (now in Lesson 5). Math topics (your No. 2; and now in Lesson 7) would have to follow simple counting (now in Lesson 3). Am I missing the point you are making? - Marsh 22:48, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * OK, first, the lessons I present here are not in order (just making sure). I think the stages of learning grammar need to be spread out, and very spread out. We should not be teaching the genitive case this early. Even the dative case could wait awhile; we could get the students familiar with phrases such as "mit dem Auto" without actually introducing them to the dative case. I actually think that we should introduce the accusative case in Lesson 3 or 4, which is where I would put the clothing lesson. Lessons on sports, "Wie geht's", and an easy intro to food could fill the gap. For how I would do this, see the layout and my first topical lesson. - SamE 13:51, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. I have been spreading things out more each time I go back in and tweak the lessons. I was already contemplating splitting the dative off to at least one lesson later than the accusative (which has now moved back to lesson 4) and was thinking of moving the genitive well back into the text (certainly after 5). I do think it is important from the grammar approach to at least mention that these cases exist and must (eventually) be dealt with. But I have no problem with continuing to "spread the difficulty".  I think I have more to say on this idea somewhere else where you ask about the target audience - Marsh 05:57, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What topic in which lesson


 * Lesson 1:
 * Lesson 2:
 * Lesson 3:
 * Lesson 4:
 * Lesson 5:
 * Lesson 6:
 * Lesson 7:
 * Lesson 8:
 * Lesson 9:
 * Lesson 10:
 * Topical Lesson 1: 1

I just started to create topical lessons, lessons geared at teaching a certain concept in depth and connecting with grammatical concepts. Eventually, these lessons should be incorporated in the original plan. For an example, see my clothing topical page (Topical Lesson 1) - SamE 03:37, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * My comments are on the discussion page for the "topical" lesson, which I have moved over as Lektion 9 - Marsh 22:28, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

- What is our target age group? Are we aiming to teach adults the language or junior high and high school students? If we are aiming for adults, they wouldn't mind the heavy grammar stuff as much, partly because they would already have a firm grasp on English grammar. We could probably go along with what we have. If we are aiming at grade school kids, we should probably go more of the topical route. I suggest even splitting the whole site up between these two. Could we do that? - SamE 14:06, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I think the target for the basic lesson level is highschool and adults wanting to self teach themselves German. I think the Advanced level target is college first year. Your idea of developing another track is a real good one.  I was looking at the Spanish book yersterday and noted that they have two approaches: one more grammar one more conversational; and they ask the user to simply choose the lesson style preferred.  I think that approach can only enhance the usefulness of the book.  Is that what you have in mind as a more "topical" approach? - Marsh 06:06, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, precisely. However, I don't completely agree with the idea of the advanced lessons targeted at a different age group. In the Vorwort, you have one path that goes 1, 1A, 2, 2A, etc. and don't state that this is for a different age level. But you are getting my point. I think we could and should definitely split it up. But how would we word it? - SamE 14:06, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Age is not exactly the difference, but more is expected out of a college beginners course than a highschool beginners course. Now you are suggesting a third track&mdash;one that is perhaps closer to highschool or younger beginning German; although again it isd more a matter of ease/difficulty comprehending rather than age. I assume your idea is to start and develop a more "conversational" approach - Marsh 17:03, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting a third track. We would have two tracks: one younger (high school or younger), "conversational" and longer, slower approach, and a second grammatical, more college and adult-based approach. - SamE 18:52, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * That is a third track since the grammatical approach has two levels that I would like to preserve. The younger version really cannot interconnnect in the same way as the Basic and Advanced levels now present are intended to interconnect. For one thing, it would be very difficult to make those interconnections because of the "slower" development of the conversational lessons (the latter could utilize the same appendices, but perhaps that is about all). Why not develop your very first lesson and we can see how it goes. It can be "officially" named and moved into sequence once I get the contents page links figured out. We may want a separate TOC to minimize student confusion. I'm interested in seeing how you plan to layout the complete lesson first. - Marsh 19:11, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I did not call the "advanced lessons" a seperate track because they cannot stand on their own. You cannot learn through them alone. I do not intend to split that, but rather to create a second 'stand-alone' track. I'm working on my lesson one at German:Beginner's Lesson 1. - SamE 04:31, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * You are right about that, but the "two" tracks existing are (Basic) 1-2-3-4-etc. and (Advanced) 1-1A-2-2A-3-3A-etc. - Marsh 08:29, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

If we were to split it up, this is the order that I would put the topical lessons in:


 * 1) Phrases such as "Wie geht's" and hellos/goodbyes along with the nominitive pronouns.
 * 2) A sports and activities lesson, introducing the verb haben and gern.
 * 3) The first food lesson. Introduces the verbs essen, trinken and bekommen.
 * 4) A clothing lesson as in the topical lessson.
 * 5) Another food lesson, this time with für and using the accusative case in the previous chapter.
 * 6) A short family member lesson with possessives.
 * 7) Shopping for school supplies. Introduces kein-words. - SamE 18:52, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Should we give this new approach another book title (subtitle)? I can probably work up some verbage for the Vorvort that will allow the user to understand that there are differrent levels available (with somewhat different approaches). Should we borrow parts of lessons back and forth between the "books"? - Marsh 06:06, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, this is exactly what I mean. We would have a adult path, somewhat what we have, and an easier, slower (and therefore longer) junior high and high school student path. We could name it with "Beginner's German" or "Easy German", but I'm sure you could come up with something better. I don't have any particular ideas on the name. - SamE 14:06, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Can each level have its own Intro? I believe many things are different. Besides, we need to update the Layout section, which is different in all three lessons. - SamE 22:15, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree, the intro needs work to make sense for all three levels. For now, I would prefer one such article for all three levels and I do intend to fix the existing one so it makes sense. But having said that, you still could write a "Forward" that is unique for Level I, and we can figure out a way to integrate the Forward and the Introduction in a useful manner. - Marsh 17:10, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I'll start that at German:Level I Preface. "Forward" sounds like an outsider is commenting on the book; "preface" is typically written by the author(s).


 * Looks good to me. Is distinct for Level I, and gives a good introduction to some unique (for English speakers) things about German.

I reverted because this is an introduction to the book, not a lesson. - marsh 04:41, 31 May 2005 (UTC) - You wrote: >>> Hast du Käse? - No one ever says "Have you cheese?" in casual talk <<<

..... By the way, I knew a man who had a redensart=he kept saying often, "Das ist doch Käse!", meaning that's nonsense. But I suppose not many people say that. [LAUGHS]

QUITTNER, 31 May 2005

"Das ist doch Käse!" means ''That's not good! It isn't worked our very well!'' m:User:Louisana

Ogg-files
I don't know if my english pronunciation is that good (can't judge myself) It would be possible to let a native speaker record the englisch words and put them together w/ my german. m:User:Louisana
 * My Windows Professional and Windows Media Player do not recognize those files as anything. I will need to track down a "player" program before I can listen to them. I recently reinstalled Windows and lost many such programs I had on the computer. If your second part is a question, I do not know the answer. Certainly with the right software, what you suggest is possible. - marsh 19:02, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I know that .ogg files are not the best format and don't run everywhere, but wikimedia likes more ogg files, because they are free - like GNU-FDL. My second sentence wasn't a question, it was a suggestion, they we could do it, if you think that my english pronunciation is too bad. m:User:Louisana
 * Well, when I have a little more tme I can look into doing what you suggest (like add my "English"). Right now I can not even hear the files you created (although a few months ago I had that capability on my computer). So I need to track down the software to play (and then to actually create and mix) ogg files. But I do like the suggestion. - marsh 19:08, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm able to play with winamp version 2.91 --m:User:Louisana

Reading List
It would be very helpful to include a list of books, or magazines that people could read at each level. Childrens books and first, and building with the language to other more complex novels. For example, a recommendation about when someone would be well served to attempt to read harry potter, compared to Wirtschaftswoche. Are there any good German childrens stories already in the public domain, like Grimm etc.?

Linking to a help manual for playing ogg files
I'm not sure is against typical WikiBooks practice or not, but I feel that it would be appropriate to link to or mention how to play ogg files somewhere in the introduction. I don't feel that it would be out of place because the intro also covers the layout of this WikiBook. This is such a great resource and I wouldn't want users to get discouraged because they don't have the appropriate codec installed. While Help:Contents has a link to an external site, people may not even think to look there. I'd even be happy to even see "Visit Help:Contents if you are having trouble playing the sound files" or something to that effect. Thanks and keep up the good work! --PS2pcGAMER 10:17, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Number of Levels?
After explaining the difference between Level I through Level V, the text goes on to state that the section German Grammar is
 * ... useful to the student working through any of the three levels

Which three levels out of five is that supposed to be ... only the upper three (i.e., not Levels I or II) or is it just an artifact of a time when there were only three levels instead of the present five? -- Eliyahu (talk) 09:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Audios
Audio doesn't work :/

3 suggestions
I followed the “report an error” link in your downloadable text, so I hope I am submitting this to the correct location.

I love this study guide. Thank you. 1) at the end of lesson one, the flash card exchange link takes you to “page not found” error. 2) the link for the test (in the sentence after flash card exchange.com) does not take me to a test, just to the beginning of the workbook. 3) will this book be updated to reflect the wiki books updated? For example, some definitions are omitted in the printable version.

Thank you again. Such great work! 69.220.152.31 (discuss) 20:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)