Talk:German/Archive 1

Usability basics - link colour
It is very unintuitive to make the link to the book page green. Hyperlinks are never green. There are web standards for a reason. It took me forever to figure out that this title was actually a hyperlink. This is a very basic usability problem. People here should know better.

The consequence of poor usability is that you frustrate readers, and then a lot of potential users never take a look at the content because they just can't access it within a reasonable time and so they give up. Ä If you put barriers between visitors and the content, they leave... If you make your content had to find, they leave...

Notice the comment further down about splash screens. The author of that comment is bang on. In a similar way, using an obtuse front page that doesn't seem to have any links to your content will effectively deflect most visitors. If splash screens deflect 25% of potential visitors, how many do you think are deflected when they simply can't find any link at all to the content? Much more than 25% I assure you.

Where the hell is this book?
I can't find the stupid book contents anywhere. It's just a bunch of links to lists of lessons that don't actually seem to exist except for the PDF version. Consider for example:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Level_II

Click on the first lesson and you get this:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Level_II/Ern%C3%A4hrung

So where is the lesson?

Instead of actually displaying a lesson, this page just has a bunch of links that promise that lessons somehow exist but fails to actually provide any lesson content. Scroll down and you get another list of lessons (quite redundant). Click on any other lesson and you are sent back to this useless page. This just duplicates what's in the table of contents, but with less clarity.

And where are the lessons?

I doubt that anyone could have designed this worse if they had tried.

Thank you for your (rude) comments, however the new and to be better level 2 is currently not finished, but it has it's templates layed out for the future so it will be easier for me to add the lesson. -- Je suis 15:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Comments
Does anyone have anyone anything to say about the new title, the brand new cover page or anything else? --German Men92 01:58, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Was soll eigentlich der Titel "Äußern!" bedeuten? Wenn ihr mir das sagt (auf englisch) kann ich euch vielleicht eine bessere Übersetzung anbieten. Vielleicht "Äußere dich!" (= "express yourself!" )?
 * I'm german too and I don't know what "Äußern!" in this context means. And you can't use "Äußere" without another word. - Bastian Fuchs
 * I agree! this title is no good title. My suggestion would be "Sag es auf Deutsch!" which is "Say it in german!" or "Deutsch für Anfänger." "German for beginners". I think even "Äußere dich!" sounds very rude to me, which can be translated to "Say it,now! Spit it out!".--SvonHalenbach 21:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * --Question: is it coming off as rude to you because of the "dich"? It's good that native German speakers are looking at this because we English-speakers have a hard time with some of the subtle nuances brought on by having two words for "you".
 * No, "dich" isn't the problem. "Äußere dich!" is an command (imperativ) like "Speak!" and sounds like you are guilty for something. -- Bastian Fuchs
 * --Answer: No, it isn't. In Germany lots of textbooks use "du". I would only think "du" is rude, if somebody "lower" would adress me with it, without me asking him to, or if it were a totally foreign person (who is not in my peer group - eg. people in the same chess club or of the same age use "du", except they do business). In business and school you usually use "Sie" between people with different jobs and positions and "du" with your collegues /mates. For very different ranks (such as between primary school kids and their teachers) the "lower" uses "Sie and the "higher" uses "du", to show more respect. So a textbook writer, who tries to be "chummy" with the student, uses "du", while many of my university books use "Sie" - to show distance. Hell, this is hard to explain. How could a non-native possibly understand it, when we don't learn rules, but just "know"?.. By the way, I'd suggest "Deutschstunde" (german lesson) and "Drück dich aus!" (say what you want to say) - Klara

Lose the Splash Page
I don't think the "German" link should go directly to the coverpage. This essentially makes it a splash page, or one more page to click through before reaching sought information. Like Flash intros, splash pages went out of style (on successful webpages) somewhere around 1999. Do a Google search for "splash pages" and you'll find many articles explaining the reasons for the splash screen's demise.

Splash screens:
 * Drive away traffic - Most visitors assess websites within a second or two. If they don't find the information they need in that time, they move on. Studies have shown that splash pages typically deflect 25% or more of a page's visitors.
 * Decrease search engine rankings - Because they have no useful content and few links, they dilute search engine rankings (which is the mode of entry to Wikibooks for many users).
 * Degrade Website Performance - The graphically intensive cover pages can add several seconds to load times (especially when Wikimedia's servers are overloaded), frustrating repeat visitors or those with slow connections.

If you take a look at other Wikibooks, many which had splash pages in the past have now dispensed with direct linking to the cover page, though they may keep it as a link or for making print versions.

Another Wikibooks-specific problems with the idea is that clicking on images sends you to the image info page by default, not the main German page, leading visitors to not know where to click. This quote from Talk:German: Front Page.


 * It was quite hard for me to find the links to the next page, not just the "Foreword" (and others) here but also the "To the Main Content" page before. Maybe that depends on the missing underline of the links. But maybe I'm just blind. ;-)

Having the "Front Page" acts almost like a second splash page. Both that and "German" utilize large images, which move the link to the Main Contents page "below the fold" for users with 800x600 screens (myself included--I can only see the top third of the photos on German). Also, having the stylized fonts looks cool, but it's a big no-no in terms of accessible site design. People with visual impairment who use screen readers, mobile-phone surfers or people using text-only browsers won't be able to find the link.

I didn't want to seem autocratic coming in here changing everything, but I really think the page should be moved to German/Cover, the Level 1 Contents here, and the Front Page should just go.
 * &mdash; Everlong 23:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

This the front page, the next page, even though called the front page, just it like the Table of Contents page, even though it's decorated as a front page, it would be boring without the stuff, and the front page is important becuase it indroduces the title of the book, and as great picture that are welcoming, and the TOC is important becuase it is gateway to the different level and the foreward, that is all TOC is, just links. --German Men92 22:36, 4 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not disputing the attractiveness of your cover pages &mdash; I think they look very nice and I appreciate your work in helping make them &mdash; what I do take issue with is the placement of the cover pages between users and the book content. In the physical world, book covers have purpose (protection and advertising), but in the online world they have the disadvantages I listed above and none of the advantages. People come to the German Wikibook either by clicking a link, bookmark or search result, all of which will advertise that the German Wikibook is the destination. So, a cover cannot help attract users by being flashy as in the real world. I would also argue that "indroduc[ing] the title of the book" is not a legitimate concern because any Wikibooks page displays the title big and bold across the top.


 * While what to you are "welcoming" "great pictures", research has shown are bothersome for repeat users and deflect many new users who are extremely impatient to find valuable content. As the quoted comment showed, at least one user became confused when trying to navigate through the pages. It is likely that for every comment received there are at least ten people (possibly many more) who had trouble but didn't bother to leave a comment.


 * In my suggestion I would not have links to other Levels. Already you link to them, but I would suggest combining the present "Front Page" with "German: Level I", perhaps by introducing it above the Level I TOC like this: "Welcome to Äußern, the German Wikibook, Level 1. For Intermediate and Advanced lessons, see Levels 2, 3, 4 and 5." With that one sentence you get your point across, quickly linking to all your information and simultaneously advertising that you have content on the first page. If you decide not to use the combined TOC/Level I proposal, then just have a page similar to Wikipedia's disambiguation pages that link to the different levels with minimal formatting and easy-to-find links (At most, one picture off to the right).


 * &mdash; Everlong 06:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No offense, but I hate the wikibook's designed like that, and if the person wants to learn German that bad, they will click the "To Main Contents". And, IMHO, I find pictures very important important in a language book, my theory is, You just can't learn the language, you have to learn the language's culture as well. And my aplogizes if you fell I'm being stubborn or something. --German Men92 19:44, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * No offence, but you don't seem to know the first thing about usability. You are deflecting more than half the users, between adding redundant splash screen and making the first one so difficult to navigate (by not having any obvious links - most people won't expect the picture or the *green* title to be hyperlinks to the main content, they usually aren't). I can't believe that you are happy to deflect 75% of the potential users because you think that anyone who deserves to learn German should be willing to put himself through extra hassle. Reality is that most users will be examining options; they'll be looking at several websites to try to learn German; and if when they reach your site they just can't find where the stupid content is they'll just close that window and move on to the next site. Yes, I do think you are stubborn.

Making life difficult for people does not teach anything about the culture. Just follow basic web standards and make the stupid book usable. Stop deflecting people away for no good reason. Including pictures is not incompatible with basic usability. You just have to make a tiny effort to make the site work. Start by making links look like links. Follow by adhering to web standards (remove redundant front pages) and wikipedia standards (ie. smaller pictures, and clicking on the picture should show you a larger version of th epicture). Here is a more specific suggestion:

1. Reduce the size of the front-page picture. Make it a link to a larger version. 2. Remove the "Main contents" link entirely, and put the table of contents right on this page.

That should be a compromise that keeps you happy and makes the book at least passable. You'll probably double the traffic to this book in the process.

The direction of the German flag is wrong: it has to go from the top to the bottom: black, red, yellow (gold) - not from left to right. --German HolgiDE 09:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I know that, but all horizontal flag are turned vertically, you would have noticed that if you seen and payed attention to the Austria flag. --German Men92 20:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, as a native German speaker, I find the title "äußern" a bit weird (though it sports both the ä and the ß ;-) I guess it is supposed to mean "express" or something, but this is really book-language, not a word anyone would use in a normal conversation, and without context rather "außergewöhnlich" than "ausdrucksstark" ;-) at least I'd make it "Äußer' dich!" (though this comes close to "say something") ... Gruß aus Paris, thamane

Wow! This book looks great! Nice job german men. The title does confuse me, but I understand what it is suppose to mean, even tho, like the guy above me, it isn't normal conversion, but I guess you know that, I woundn't use "außergewöhnlich" or "ausdrucksstark" they are very long, and could scare away people, but of how long or hard to, for beginner, pronounce it, but good job. --Fitchguy20 15:36, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank for your guy's comments, I might change the title, i'm not sure yet, and thank very much fitchguy, I see you have hep with the german wikibook. we should talk sometime. --German Men92 17:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Audio
I teach high school English here in Wolfsburg (Germany) and my class had a look at "Äußern". They were thinking about recording some of the dialogues to OGG files to assist others in learning the language. Has anybody done this before for "Äußern" or any similar project on Wikibooks? If so, I'd love to read about their experiences, especially on where to find webspace and how best to link it to the Wikibook pages.

By the way, many of my students commented that most of the names used in the dialogues sound out of date. --Martin, Eichendorffschule 22:43, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There are some good recording guidelines for the Spoken Wikipedia that you can look at. As for webspace, just upload to Wikimedia Commons or Wikibooks using the "Upload file" link in the Toolbox on the sidebar. Have a look at Chinese/Lesson_1 to see how I included audio into the Chinese lessons. There are sound files for the full dialogues and for individual vocab words as well. - Everlong 20:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I would love that, it would really help, also you could recommend them to be a bigger part of "Äußern", as in make newer names for the dialoges, and contribue by adding to the lessons and stuff. It could help with their English skills, because they have to translate many words into English, and do (almost) everything in English, and if they make a mistake grammatically. You could fix and point out thier mistakes, if you notice any. -- Je suis 00:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

German-English Dictionary?
Should there be a German-English dictionary associated with this wbook (or even not) so that people who look at the lessons can know what the words are and what they mean and also get some more vocabulary? I haven't really seen a page with all of the vocabulary used in the lessons, and I think it would be a useful aid. Jfingers88 13:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

A vocabulary book will one of the last additions in the book, they will be indroduce with TONS of vocabulary through out levels 1 - 4, and be will reviewed and test on it in level 5. And the reason why it will be one of the last things is because it will be a large and long process and I want to get the rest the book finished before I get things like that in here. However I a very rough draft of the vocabulary book, but it's on paper. --German Men92 21:41, 14 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I kinda sorta started one in my sandbox, but I'm not exactly sure on a style (plus it only has 4 entries!). I made a couple templates to keep it standardized, hopefully. Jfingers88 23:37, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have added on to your dictionary. Not a lot be there is more than when you started. I won't be able to do anything for a while but tell me what you think of it. Schreiber555 18:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Beolingus.de and Leo.com are both very wide ranging German/English dictionaries, whilst beolingus often gives examples of a word in context. Perhaps someone could place a link to these pages somewhere in the book? Soy988 17:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just in case anyone comes across this again. Unfortunately, the dictionary had to be deleted as it is outside the scope of Wikibooks and belongs at Wiktionary. --Swift (talk) 14:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Title
What is "Äußern!" supposed to mean? It took a while until I noticed that it must be the title of this book. Strange, strange. At least it's not a word that I as a native speaker of German would connect to the title of any book, let alone a language textbook. I strongly recommend a new title. While it hasn't to be "Verboten!" ;-), something recognisable would be nice. --62.214.234.183 15:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. I've never heard or seen "äußern" used in the imperative. Drop the title: it's not German and is at best transliterated English. 24.52.167.159 May 7, 2006

It is German, it is a uncommon verb that translates into "to express", "to say", ect. it is very uncommon, but shorter and more welcoming than "ausdrücken". --German Men92 20:17, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

It is most closely translated with "to utter". Since äußern is a transitive verb, the imperative, if it is meant to be one, is rather incorrect, even apart from the (missing) conjugation. I'd prefer something like "Sprich Deutsch!" (speak German) or "Drück Dich aus!" (express yourself). --Derungs, May 16, 2006

For me it sounds like "äußerln", which is what the dog is doing when you walk the dog.

I agree that the title should be changed, and to me as native German it doesn't sound welcoming at all... And, by the way, that kind of font you used for the title is a stereotype not typical for German any more.

I absolutely agree that the title must be changed. The verb 'äußern' can not be used in a single word order. That does not only sound unfriendly and rude, but also wrong. Of course, the stereotype of german being a military style language is represented by that expression, especially when written in a gothic font, but if this is the intention, why not call the book 'Achtung!' or 'Jawohl!'? Well, I guess, everybody agrees, that Germany shouldn't be reduced to a very tragic decade of its history and that a language book teaching a contemporary language should represent the contemporary use of that language. Therefore I would suggest to change the title to something more pleasant like 'Hallo zusammen!' --Cheonhajangsa 06:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I absolutely agree, but instead of repeating that the current title is bad, we should start thinking about a GOOD name… I can't think of anything creative right now, but what about "German"?? And maybe a nice tagline like "Lass und Deutsch lernen!" (let's learn German). Just as a start – that's better than "Äußern!" anyway, haven't figured out what that's supposed to mean (and I'm German). Maybe something like "express yourself [in German]"..? 87.78.124.167 22:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I - also as a native German speaker - were not quite sure about the meaning of the title, when I read it the first time. It's not very good, I think, and I absolutely agree that the title has to be changed. "Ausdrücken" would be a better version, but it's also not the very best. Why do we actually need any title? Wouldn't it be enough if we wrote "Learn the German language with Wikibooks"? --87.172.220.53 (talk) 17:01, 24 April 2008 (UTC) (I'm sorry, but I've forgotten to login: Username Jayk.

I just created an account and noticed that the last update to this page was in April, 2008. If you are still in need of help (grammar, history, vocabulary) please let me know. I'll be happy to help work on this.

Standarisation
I think that German book needs some standarisation. First, it would be fine if table of contents linked to main book discussion page - normally you don't know whether to use cover page talk, TOC page talk or something else.

Second thing is presentation - I think that German should make use of wikitables or own boxes (like in French) for presenting vocabulary instead of using &lt;pre&gt; text as for source code. I would also like to see more images from Commons and pronunciation examples from commons:Category:German pronunciation (there are tons of files). Currently the book does not make any use of media available at Commons and does not look very attractive; it's rather boring and monotonous. --Derbeth talk 08:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
 * And another thing: you can make link to Wiktionary for every new word you introduce (this is what Wiktionary is for, isn't it?). --Derbeth talk 10:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

As soon as I complete lesson five on level one, i'll convert everything, and as for audio, it will be one of the finishing touchs of the book. --German Men92 23:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

And wikitionary is useless it this case, all the lessons are going to have german to english translations, and later will have if it is masc. or fem. --German Men92 20:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Wiktionary can be useful for a lot of things. For the French book, for example, the English Wiktionary provides lists of reflexive verbs, type one/two/thee verbs, and 1750 common words (which can be useful when choosing vocabulary to use), and has complete, pretty, conjugation tables for verbs. Linking to Wiktionary can stop you from doing a lot of extra work, so it may be worth your while to take a look at it. --Hagindaz 22:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll use for myself, if I run into something I forgot. --German Men92 02:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned modules
Lessons: Grammar: Vocabulary: Please link these. --haginძaz 02:28, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * German/Lesson 5B
 * German/Grammar/Prepositions and Postpositions
 * German Vocabulary - Move to German/Vocabulary and use as a vocabulary reference companion to the grammar reference.

All of those, other then German/Grammar/Prepositions and Postpositions, are not to be used, becuase the Lesson one won't be used anyway, because Level 3 is getting a whole different lesson plan, All in info the grammar pages are in the current pages used grammar pages, and I am going to make a German - English and English - German dictionary. -- Je suis 20:07, 17 May 2006 (UTC)



I guess this is the section i should post this in. sorry my introduction to myself is so long, but really, i'm just reporting what i did last night.

so, umm, hi folks. My name is Ross, and I'm finishing up my masters degree this summer at UBC. Distractions are always good, I'm really, really into German grammar, and there is still a lot of German grammar that needs to be put up on the grammar part of the website. So. I'm gonna do it. it'll be fun writing out rules for subordinate clauses, which strangely has not yet been written. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong section, though - I'm just looking at the "Grammar" section at the bottom, rather than any of the lessons. I don't know. but, staying up all night last night, I revamped a couple of sections. i wrote the whole article on "Adjectival Nouns", which are really easy.

then, i did "Word Order in the Main Clause" (I put up a table listing the perfectly correct syntax, plus some conventions and tips for people, while leaving the more detailed stuff others had written alone); and I made up a new table for the "Pronouns" article, comparing definite articles to 3rd-person pronouns. they are really similar (den/ihn; dem/ihm) and when i was learning German, realizing that connection really helped me get the declensions learned. If any of you feel like it would be beneficial, perhaps my table could be integrated into a lesson somewhere. check it out!

I also touched up the existing "Prepositions" table a whole bunch. First, I put them in person-order. Second, I removed the column that (for some strange reason) had the possessive pronouns in the genitive case. I see no reason why the genitive case of possessive pronouns and only the genitive case should be up there, other than to confuse the readers. I put up a little explanation about what the genitive case was and how it is similar to possessive pronouns. Maybe the explanation is too long, but I think people reading it will understand what i'm explaining.

Also, I'm tempted to make the first pronoun declension table vertical, rather than horizontal. All of the textbooks I've used and tutored with had the pronouns declined vertically. soo...yeah. I could write out German grammar for hours. I love the stuff. I started taking Russian this year simply because it has so much grammar (German grammar is a lot more straightforward). and maybe when i'm done with the grammar, I could start writing something on German morphology. but that would come a lot later. so...there you go. You'll probably see more of my edits as time progresses. I just think it's cool that this project exists, and there are other people as into German as I am. later. Zweifel 17:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thank you your help is very welcome, in fact needed, to you know anything about German, other than grammar, like vocabulary or idioms of the language? --Je suis 22:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Naming Policy
The German Wikibook uses the deprecated ":" naming convention while the enforced Naming policy uses the "/" convention. Since the book predates the implementation of the policy, its chapters don't technically need to be renamed, however, it is still strongly encouraged. - 128.6.175.18 02:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

A name change is not totally necessary (the book is old and the name is in the title). And it is down low on the list of thing to do for the German book. --German Men92 23:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents?
Uhh and how the heck do you get to the contents page? The jpg images that say click here to start or whatever, just lead to themselves.

Fixed. --German Men92 23:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Title page organization
After May, could the Botm an Cotm headers be moved to the bottom? It would much improve visibility and ease in accessing the book. Jfingers88 00:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll second that. --Everlong 21:49, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Menu, bi!?
Hi, how do you did this drop-down-menu (show), is it the pattern bi??? I'm "working" on the German version of WikiBooks, writing there a German grammar (I try) ; - ) 80.132.115.48 12:56, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, see Infobox. Although it requires extra CSS code in order to render correctly on skins other than monobook. --hagindaz 14:54, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

dieses und jenes...
In the grammar section about articles, I noticed the sentence: One thing to keep in mind is that, unlike in English, jener (that) is only used to contrast with another noun, dieser, and never by itself This is not correct, they mostly go together but you can very well use "jene/r/s" alone. (Was sich in jener Wundernacht / Des weitern zugetragen,...(H. Heine)). Also, "jene/r/s" is used to refer to the first object of a sentence, whereas "diese/r/s" refers to the last one (Der Mann ging mit der Frau und dem Kind einkaufen, obwohl jene anfangs nicht mitgehen wollte. "jene" ==> "die Frau"). The second usage has become somewhat rare, though. 212.108.40.126 23:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. --SvonHalenbach 21:17, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't (native). “Somewhat rare”? Nobody says "jenes Buch", it's grammatically correct, but it has disappeared in spoken German pretty much completely. Heinrich Heine might be a good writer, but he died 150 years ago. 87.78.71.44 16:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I also don't agree (also native). "Jener", "jene" and "jenes" are only used to say something mysterious - like "Jene Nacht" ir "Jenes verdammtes Buch" - in modern German. If you want to say "jenes Buch", it's better to say "dieses Buch" or "das Buch dort / da". By the way: German language is always changing. Some years and there won't be any use of Genitiv (=> Dativ) or Präteritum (=> Perfekt). One more: Read Martin Luther's "95 Thesen" - there's a totally other spelling and of course there was also a totally other pronounciation.

problem
In the PDF version the alphabet is missing. Also, it does not teach tenses.

German lessons too long
Hello.I am Youssef Oualmakran and my nickname is youssefsan. I contribute mainly to French Wikipedia.

I have some experience in studying languages. I am starting the German lessons with German/Level_I/Wie_hei%C3%9Ft_du%3F. I am also studying german with printed books. In my humble opinion, lessons are too long and with too many information. For example the pdf version of lesson 1 is some 8 pages long.

In lessons one, the course show
 * the complete alphabet
 * all the pronouns in nominative case
 * the present tense of haben, sein, hei
 * the nominative case of the definite and indefinite article
 * question words
 * various tables of vocabulary.

I think even if the student is not requested to master all these topics it is too much for a begginer student who tends to be confused. I suggest to split the lessons into various "sub-units".

Oualmakran Youssef 14:58, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I whole-heartedly agree and have brought up the issue before. Please try BLL German instead, a course that was created as an alternative, since the creators of this book don't see the need to change this. Junesun 13:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Wrong case order
Hello I am a native speaker and I have seen that in every lesson the cases are in a wrong order. In the German language the Nominative is called the first case, the Genitive is the second, the Dative the third and the Accusative is called the fourth case. Thats the right order. What do you think about changing order.
 * Great idea! You're welcome to make this change yourself, or someone else should get around to it eventually.  Jade Knight 10:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Technically the order you have stated is correct, however when teaching German to speakers of other languages, the order used is nominative, accusative, dative, genetive. The reason for this is that this is the order of how often each case is used... which makes a lot more sense.

You don't teach someone to use genetive before you teach them accusative or dative!!!

Thanks, Aaron


 * At my (British) school, all the textbooks listed the cases in the order nom-acc-gen-dat. It makes no difference which order a book uses, as long as it is consistent. --Lutonia 20:06, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe you're right. And some years and there won't be any use of dative. But you should teach the numbers correctly. Range of teaching is not important, but the numbers because if you talk to a German, sometimes he will say "Vierter Fall" (I as a native German use it many times) instead of "Akkusativ". It's simply not correct, it's a mistake. --87.172.224.117 (talk) 12:44, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Pdf
It may seems a stupid, but I can't download pdf book. Maybe It's a broken link.

German at Wikiversity
There is now a German course at Wikiversity! Check it out! Jade Knight 10:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Verb Form website?
Does anybody know of a website that lists various verb forms? Like Seid: Ich bin, du bist, er/sie/es ist etc. etc. (Not necessarily noted for inclusion in the article, but I was hoping you guys would know.)


 * Try this site: Verbix --Lutonia 20:01, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Category
I am making this a Category I language. Let me know if there are any objections. Opi java 00:41, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Usability Revisited
I am German and have to go to Romania in 5 days for a business trip. I am currently in Bulgaria and so I have no chance to buy a crash course for Romanian in my native language, and ended up trying the wikimedia Romanian course. It had some basics, not exactly bad, I wasn't exactly satisfied, a little bit unsatisfied. As a good internet citizen I decided to check the wikimedia "Learn German" and add some improvements there, and I must say, I am really shocked: This is completely unusable! If you already know German, you may be able to improve things a little bit, but if you do not know German (nota bene! the intended audience) you are completely lost! Who wants to know about Moin, moin as opposed to Guten Morgen? Would you start an English language course with ain't ain't a word? This looks completely unstructured to me, and I don't think that anybody will be able to actually learn something about our language here. Honestly, I think that this so-called online course for German is way beyond being fixable. May somebody please delete it and start from scratch! The course for Romanian taught you things like "Hello", "I'm sorry", and "Good bye". The German course teaches you how to call the "Auskunft" and how some "Franz" (> 50 years, the name is rare nowadays) addresses some "Greta" (> 120 years, the name is basically extinct). Seriously, this here thing is a shame and I sincerely hope that somebody will make an effort to help people from the internet community learning German free of charge. Sorry for being rude, but this German course is a bad joke, unusable! And it occupies space that should be used better. I am user http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer:Gflohr, since my signature will only link to my ip address. --90.154.134.148 20:22, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I work as a teacher and course developer for a big German virtual school and I made exactly the same experience. That's why I started writing the BLL German course as an alternative, but I am not ready to continue providing my professional knowledge if I'm the only one contributing to this new and much-improved course. Junesun 20:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * It is good to be honest about the quality of this course and I agree with both of you in this respect. However, it is also important to address the real problems: uncommon names are not a problem (after all these are just names; all you learn is the pronunciation of German and in that respect "Franz" and "Greta" are good examples), occupying space is not a problem (there is enough space available), and too much content is also not a problem (you can always split the lessons into smaller ones). After looking at the first two lessons, I was actually surprised how many audiofiles were recorded for this course. Even if it is just for the sake of these audiofiles and the work people have invested in them, this course deserves a serious overhaul. I'm not going to add much new content (I don't have that much time), but I'll try to reformat, correct, and reorganize the existing content. And I probably also add translations and vocabulary lists where they are missing. --Martin Kraus (talk) 23:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Image changed, title changed
Hi everybody. When I saw the title I got very embarassed. There were many comments already on this discussion page, German natives, asking "what does "äussern!" mean. These posts dated back to 2006 and I couldn't find one defense of the title. As both former wp addict and German native speaker I took bold action and removed the image. Lacking original I took another one, from the wp Germany article, the Dome of Cologne and wrote "Sprich Deutsch! ," Speak German, one of the many replacements that have been suggested. I think it is in the interest of everybody to have a title that a) is understandable, b) transfers the intended meaning, c) makes sense in the German language to actually say and does not sound like an awkward intent of a translation from English to German. This new suggested title is an initial step in all of these directions. The image is not meant a final version, I am sure others can do better. If you mind the changes to title and you are not sure about how to express what you want to say in a German sounding title, I ask you to please address your concerns here first, thank you. Ben (talk) 20:52, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I removed the titles ("Äußern!", "Sprich Deutsch!") from most pages. Please remove any other occurences that you find. The new (and old) title is "German". If you want another title, rename this wikibook or start a new one. --Martin Kraus (talk) 22:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Orphans
While not technically orphans in that they link to each other, they have no link from the root German page and will not be seen by readers. Please merge their content or note that they aren't useful. -- Adrignola talk contribs 19:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 * German/Concept Advanced
 * German/Concepts Basic
 * German/Lesson 1
 * German/Lesson 2
 * German/Lesson 3
 * German/Lesson 4
 * German/Lesson 5
 * German/Lesson 5B
 * German/Lesson 6
 * German/Lesson 7
 * German/Lesson 8
 * German/Lesson 9
 * German/Lesson 10
 * German/Lesson 11
 * German/Lesson 12
 * German/Answers 1
 * German/Appendix 4


 * O well, I just learned in a discussion page that these lessons are the original lessons that were considered to be too difficult for learners who don't know much about English grammar. Thus, the plan was to make these lessons the Level II lessons and have more "topical" lessons in Level I. However, the Level I lessons got expanded in a way which also heavily emphasized grammar (even more than the original lessons IMHO); thus, the current Level I lessons don't really reflect the original idea and are now even less accessible than these Level II lessons (which never really made it into the structure for Level II) . Thus, I'm not sure what to do. Maybe one should just move these lessons to Level II and forget about the current stubs for Level II.  --Martin Kraus (talk) 23:02, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's the way to go: we should delete the current Level II stubs (which were planned by User:German Men92 but never came into existence). And I suggest to restore this version of the Level II table of contents: . Bascially, we should undo what Geman Men92 started to do to Level II. --Martin Kraus (talk) 23:39, 1 August 2010 (UTC)


 * They've now been deleted. I'll leave linking the above pages for you, as I don't want to do it incorrectly. – Adrignola talk 00:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)