Talk:French/Archive 1


 * Discussion from this page and the Contents page combined and sorted by topic.
 * Discussion that is old and no longer relevant to the current state of the book.
 * November 2003 (conception) - February 2006 (reorganization)

Contents:
 * Sorted by Topic (Contents and cover discussion combined)
 * Unsorted Contents Page Discussion (Original)
 * Unsorted Main / Cover Page Discussion (Original)

=Sorted by Topic=

Cover / Main Page Discussion
All images (flags and view of Montréal) come from the french Wikipédia. I converted flags in PNG format and the photo in JPG. I also resized the flags of Belgium and Luxembourg. The comment of the photo come also from fr:. Traroth 11:55, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I feel the flags don't look really professional. Some of them don't load up for me and it scrolls the "contents" link off the bottom of the page. May I suggest a map of the world with the French-speaking countries highlighted and named? That would better show the scope and worldwide utility of French.

Areas with French as the only language (ex. France) would be darkest, while places like Quebec with two official languages would be lighter, and so on (3-4 shades) to show the level of influence.

--Everlong 02:57, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * French in Quebec has just as much, if not more influence than in France though. --JulieADriver 02:59, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Other languages and French articles
The Greek section should be moved to the Greek Wikibooks server, as this is the English Wikibooks server. --JulieADriver 02:59, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

picture
Well, description of the picture could be written in English ;p


 * Done. --JulieADriver 02:54, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Flags
Can the flags be made to all be the same width?

French navigating
Hi, I'm wondering if it is a good idea to add the french equivalents to all the titles, such as Lesson/Leçon? I am going to proceed on pages that I have already worked on, please comment otherwise. Jonojet

Pronouncation
It would be absolutely wonderful if there were a guide to pronouncation accompanying each example. Perhaps also a chapter mentioning some basic pronouncation rules. I know that it isn't grammar but it is IMHO inevitable when learning a new language.


 * A native speaker speaking here. I agree considerably: a guide to orthography and pronunciation is sorely missing (how are English speakers to know the difference between patte et pâte, or how to pronounce /y/ and /2/ ?) Circeus 21:07, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As a French student, I have to say I feel a bit let-down by this book...it really just reminds me more of a brief overview of grammar, as opposed to anything that could be considered a real book...

Pronounciation
Please provide a pronounciation guide for beginners, else I might be bold and provide one. E.g. J' habite a Paris => zshabi to pari., Je m' appelle John.=> zhu mapel john. Thanks.--Jondel 09:27, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, there should be explained pronuncation of french letters, or letter sequences.. sblive, 3 Oct 2004

Sorry if I sound so inquisitive, my French is horrible and I want to fix it properly :) Dysprosia 09:03, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

General Requests and Improvement Ideas
Shouldn't this be called something different? Isn't this more a "travel guide" sort of thing? Is there going to be a more systematic French tutorial coming?

Standardisation (UK)/Standardization (US)
Hi, I was editing some lessons when I came across a subtlety in standardization, and it's not about how "standardisation" is supposed to be spelt. In many french textbooks written in english, any example of something in french is often written in italics. Perhaps we could adopt this practise as well? That would mean that it would be better to place emphasis in bold. Comments?Jonojet

tv5.org
Useful information on the French language can be found on the site of tv5 (www.tv5.org). http://www.tv5.org/TV5Site/lf/langue_francaise.php + Dictionnaire de langue francaise. , Dictionnaire de synonymes. , Conjugaisons. , Dictionnaire anglais/francais. , Dictionnaire francais/anglais. and lots more!

Some music
I think that can be a nice idea to add some "music", for example: the song used by the children to learn alphabet... And other song too... It's could seem "stupid" for adults but this "simple" songs "for children" can help to learn a foreign language... (Sorry for English mistakes, im French :P)

I have a few CDs of french lessons and some highschool exercises, I might flip through them and add the important stuff, of course with a list of the source. OMouse 1 Apr 2005

Vote for Restructure
I think it's really necessary that this book is structurally changed so that we can go more indepth and create a really meaningful resource for teaching this great language. Thereby I propose we re-structure the course element of this book, using the great, already written materials plus adding new ones. The proposed new structure (please feel free to comment, add or change) is at Proposal for a Restructure of French Wikibook. Please have a look and then comment, or, if necessary, we can vote.

Lessons Discussion
Well according to the main page, looks like we should use the Foreign language textbook template which is referencing the Spanish textbook as example. I just took it's chapter organisation for the french textbook :p -- Hashar 13:01, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Perhaps there is a better organization than the Spanish one. We could start with these guidelines:
 * Don't use any vocabulary/grammar that hasn't been explained yet
 * Teach a useful topic each lesson
 * Don't make any lesson just grammar -- have a mixture of grammar, vocabulary, and examples.


 * Then we could have a spiral model where each lesson builds on the one before. For example, telling whether someone is late depends on the skills of asking questions, negative statements, and telling the time; telling the time depends on knowing numbers; knowing numbers depends on knowing what et means. As another example, perhaps the first lesson could introduce je and vous, a later lesson introduce tu, il, and elle, a later lesson introduce on, and so on. -- Mpt 01:37, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What is the aim of lesson 13 ? What do you want inside ? Traroth 15:53, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

We must create exercises, we must not muck up the audio file matching
What is lacking here is practice exercises. I think there should be enough exercises ideally to have one new exercise page for every lesson page.

When we edit and change, everybody be careful not to make the french different from the audio file whenever possible. Add other examples outside of the block of spoken examples and when trying to make translations more direct, change the english to match the french, not the other way around. Also, lets all discuss our edits more than we actually edit, so these things can be tracked more easily Lotusduck 00:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)lotusduck

Audio
I have a bit of spare time on my hands at the moment and am going to try to record audio to accompany the lessons. I'm not a native speaker, but hopefully it will be enough for this course. If it really annoys anyone, please change it! It would also be great if anyone could give me help with the dialogues involving male and female characters' voices. Thanks. Jonojet

future tense and culture
In chapter 11 and 13 I've added a bit on future tense and culture respectively. I assume that chapter 11 is a good enough time to introduce future tenses. And the culture lesson, I was tempted to blag most of the lesson from the Culture of France article. but i did something anyway. What do you think about lesson 14 then? I'd like to get involved more with this--Wonderfool 00:42, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Beginners

 * Ca va? (perhaps have some material from la corps here, but it should be fairly early in the lessons)
 * Quelle heure est-il? - What's the time? (inc. 24 hour time)
 * Months and Days - Birthdays, Saints' days, seasons. (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.)
 * Je suis perdu! - I'm lost! (Asking where places are, directions)

Intermediate/Advanced
Can I please suggest some lesson subjects? (pinched from the Board of Studies, NSW, Australia).. ;) see for more info/ideas. Thanks! - 220.237.30.150 02:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "Relationships" - do you get on with your family/friends, what kind of a friend are you, talk about your relationship with your petit(e) ami(e).
 * "School Life and Aspirations" - what kind of career do you want in the future, what are your favourite subjects and why, do you learn well from your profs, etc.
 * "Young Person's World" - pop culture, mass media, politics, what they think of fashion, if they have a part-time job.
 * "Leisure and Interests" - hobbies, leisure, past hobbies, technology, mobile/cell phones
 * "Daily Life/Lifestyles" - self explicatory, really.
 * "Controversial Issues" - again, fairly self explicatory.

Drastic Revision Needed
Bleh, I did more for this book in a few days than has been done in two years. :) Anyway, I would like your thoughts on the changes I made and your help in creating exercises.

Updates?
This book hasn't really been updated in content since 2003, with the only page receiving anything more than minor changes being lesson 13. Given the current state of the book, this should be fixed and a clear direction of the book outlined as soon as possible.

Naming

 * The naming policy should be standardized. The best way would be French/[Lessons,Appendices,etc]/[Title] recommended in the Naming Policy.
 * Lesson Names and Apendices should be renamed to descriptive titles, following the Naming Policy structure.

Book Structure

 * The book should follow the Foreign language textbook template, which is now the German Wikibook.
 * The Grammar reference should be one contained page, following the German Grammar format.
 * A header template should be made with links to major sections and added to every page, following to style of Template:HTBACTOC

Reorganizing the Lessons

 * The most important action to be done is to reorganize and redo all the lessons. I feel this is something that should be done collaborately.
 * 1) The new content arrangement for the lessons should first be finalized and agreed upon as soon as possible.
 * 2) The existing content should then be added to the respective sections of the new arrangement.
 * 3) Finally, new content should be created as needed.

Lesson Structure Proposals

 * There are three reasonable options for lesson structure:

01: German WikiBook
 * The lessons are desperately in need of thorough revision. There are simply too many grammar topics covered for a beginner to learn. Any one lesson in this book has more grammar than the First German Level, which is only used to give enough grammar for a basic *understanding of the structure of phrases and to learn the vocabulary. The first French level should be the same.
 * In the Second German Level, grammar has begun to be taught structurally, with technical rules of formation of verbs and sentences given. French lessons should follow this structure.
 * Serge's proposed lessons would go well with this system.

02: Japanese Wikibook
 * Maybe have a basic vocab-focused course and a separate grammar-intensive course, like the Japanese WikiBook? That way we would be able to keep the current lessons.

03: Those outlined by an anonymous user in Section 8 of the talk page.

Changes Already Done
--Hagindaz 03:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Grammar organized.
 * Header template created and added to all pages.
 * Appendices organized.
 * Naming standardized.
 * Print versions created of lessons and grammar.

=Unsorted Contents Page Discussion=

General
I have a few CDs of french lessons and some highschool exercises, I might flip through them and add the important stuff, of course with a list of the source. OMouse 1 Apr 2005

Shouldn't this be called something different? Isn't this more a "travel guide" sort of thing? Is there going to be a more systematic French tutorial coming?

Well, there should be explained pronuncation of french letters, or letter sequences.. sblive, 3 Oct 2004

Sorry if I sound so inquisitive, my French is horrible and I want to fix it properly :) Dysprosia 09:03, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Well according to the main page, looks like we should use the Foreign language textbook template which is referencing the Spanish textbook as example. I just took it's chapter organisation for the french textbook :p -- Hashar 13:01, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)


 * Perhaps there is a better organization than the Spanish one. We could start with these guidelines:
 * Don't use any vocabulary/grammar that hasn't been explained yet
 * Teach a useful topic each lesson
 * Don't make any lesson just grammar -- have a mixture of grammar, vocabulary, and examples.


 * Then we could have a spiral model where each lesson builds on the one before. For example, telling whether someone is late depends on the skills of asking questions, negative statements, and telling the time; telling the time depends on knowing numbers; knowing numbers depends on knowing what et means. As another example, perhaps the first lesson could introduce je and vous, a later lesson introduce tu, il, and elle, a later lesson introduce on, and so on. -- Mpt 01:37, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What is the aim of lesson 13 ? What do you want inside ? Traroth 15:53, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Pronouncation
It would be absolutely wonderful if there were a guide to pronouncation accompanying each example. Perhaps also a chapter mentioning some basic pronouncation rules. I know that it isn't grammar but it is IMHO inevitable when learning a new language.


 * A native speaker speaking here. I agree considerably: a guide to orthography and pronunciation is sorely missing (how are English speakers to know the difference between patte et pâte, or how to pronounce /y/ and /2/ ?) Circeus 21:07, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As a French student, I have to say I feel a bit let-down by this book...it really just reminds me more of a brief overview of grammar, as opposed to anything that could be considered a real book...

future tense and culture
In chapter 11 and 13 I've added a bit on future tense and culture respectively. I assume that chapter 11 is a good enough time to introduce future tenses. And the culture lesson, I was tempted to blag most of the lesson from the Culture of France article. but i did something anyway. What do you think about lesson 14 then? I'd like to get involved more with this--Wonderfool 00:42, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Spreading out the grammar
Can I suggest something...we cut up the grammar majorly! There is FAR too much grammar in each lesson - for instance, a lesson to learn the past tenses is too hard - so can we create say, 3 levels (a la German wikibook) and have say about 10 lessons in each, with more vocabulary, more examples and more exercises? - Serge

Audio
I have a bit of spare time on my hands at the moment and am going to try to record audio to accompany the lessons. I'm not a native speaker, but hopefully it will be enough for this course. If it really annoys anyone, please change it! It would also be great if anyone could give me help with the dialogues involving male and female characters' voices. Thanks. Jonojet

Vote for Restructure
I think it's really necessary that this book is structurally changed so that we can go more indepth and create a really meaningful resource for teaching this great language. Thereby I propose we re-structure the course element of this book, using the great, already written materials plus adding new ones. The proposed new structure (please feel free to comment, add or change) is at Proposal for a Restructure of French Wikibook. Please have a look and then comment, or, if necessary, we can vote.

Beginners

 * Ca va? (perhaps have some material from la corps here, but it should be fairly early in the lessons)
 * Quelle heure est-il? - What's the time? (inc. 24 hour time)
 * Months and Days - Birthdays, Saints' days, seasons. (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.)
 * Je suis perdu! - I'm lost! (Asking where places are, directions)

Intermediate/Advanced
Can I please suggest some lesson subjects? (pinched from the Board of Studies, NSW, Australia).. ;) see for more info/ideas. Thanks! - 220.237.30.150 02:48, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "Relationships" - do you get on with your family/friends, what kind of a friend are you, talk about your relationship with your petit(e) ami(e).
 * "School Life and Aspirations" - what kind of career do you want in the future, what are your favourite subjects and why, do you learn well from your profs, etc.
 * "Young Person's World" - pop culture, mass media, politics, what they think of fashion, if they have a part-time job.
 * "Leisure and Interests" - hobbies, leisure, past hobbies, technology, mobile/cell phones
 * "Daily Life/Lifestyles" - self explicatory, really.
 * "Controversial Issues" - again, fairly self explicatory.

Drastic Revision Needed
Bleh, I did more for this book in a few days than has been done in two years. :) Anyway, I would like your thoughts on the changes I made and your help in creating exercises.

Updates?
This book hasn't really been updated in content since 2003, with the only page receiving anything more than minor changes being lesson 13. Given the current state of the book, this should be fixed and a clear direction of the book outlined as soon as possible.

Naming

 * The naming policy should be standardized. The best way would be French/[Lessons,Appendices,etc]/[Title] recommended in the Naming Policy.
 * Lesson Names and Apendices should be renamed to descriptive titles, following the Naming Policy structure.

Book Structure

 * The book should follow the Foreign language textbook template, which is now the German Wikibook.
 * The Grammar reference should be one contained page, following the German Grammar format.
 * A header template should be made with links to major sections and added to every page, following to style of Template:HTBACTOC

Reorganizing the Lessons

 * The most important action to be done is to reorganize and redo all the lessons. I feel this is something that should be done collaborately.
 * 1) The new content arrangement for the lessons should first be finalized and agreed upon as soon as possible.
 * 2) The existing content should then be added to the respective sections of the new arrangement.
 * 3) Finally, new content should be created as needed.

Lesson Structure Proposals

 * There are three reasonable options for lesson structure:

01: German WikiBook
 * The lessons are desperately in need of thorough revision. There are simply too many grammar topics covered for a beginner to learn. Any one lesson in this book has more grammar than the First German Level, which is only used to give enough grammar for a basic *understanding of the structure of phrases and to learn the vocabulary. The first French level should be the same.
 * In the Second German Level, grammar has begun to be taught structurally, with technical rules of formation of verbs and sentences given. French lessons should follow this structure.
 * Serge's proposed lessons would go well with this system.

02: Japanese Wikibook
 * Maybe have a basic vocab-focused course and a separate grammar-intensive course, like the Japanese WikiBook? That way we would be able to keep the current lessons.

03: Those outlined by an anonymous user in Section 8 of the talk page.

Changes Already Done
--Hagindaz 03:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Grammar organized.
 * Header template created and added to all pages.
 * Appendices organized.
 * Naming standardized.
 * Print versions created of lessons and grammar.

=Unsorted Main / Cover Page Discussion= All images (flags and view of Montréal) come from the french Wikipédia. I converted flags in PNG format and the photo in JPG. I also resized the flags of Belgium and Luxembourg. The comment of the photo come also from fr:. Traroth 11:55, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I feel the flags don't look really professional. Some of them don't load up for me and it scrolls the "contents" link off the bottom of the page. May I suggest a map of the world with the French-speaking countries highlighted and named? That would better show the scope and worldwide utility of French.

Areas with French as the only language (ex. France) would be darkest, while places like Quebec with two official languages would be lighter, and so on (3-4 shades) to show the level of influence.

--Everlong 02:57, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * French in Quebec has just as much, if not more influence than in France though. --JulieADriver 02:59, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Other languages and French articles
The Greek section should be moved to the Greek Wikibooks server, as this is the English Wikibooks server. --JulieADriver 02:59, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

picture
Well, description of the picture could be written in English ;p


 * Done. --JulieADriver 02:54, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Flags
Can the flags be made to all be the same width?

French navigating
Hi, I'm wondering if it is a good idea to add the french equivalents to all the titles, such as Lesson/Leçon? I am going to proceed on pages that I have already worked on, please comment otherwise. Jonojet

Pronounciation
Please provide a pronounciation guide for beginners, else I might be bold and provide one. E.g. J' habite a Paris => zshabi to pari., Je m' appelle John.=> zhu mapel john. Thanks.--Jondel 09:27, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Standardisation (UK)/Standardization (US)
Hi, I was editing some lessons when I came across a subtlety in standardization, and it's not about how "standardisation" is supposed to be spelt. In many french textbooks written in english, any example of something in french is often written in italics. Perhaps we could adopt this practise as well? That would mean that it would be better to place emphasis in bold. Comments?Jonojet

tv5.org
Useful information on the French language can be found on the site of tv5 (www.tv5.org). http://www.tv5.org/TV5Site/lf/langue_francaise.php + Dictionnaire de langue francaise. , Dictionnaire de synonymes. , Conjugaisons. , Dictionnaire anglais/francais. , Dictionnaire francais/anglais. and lots more!

We must create exercises, we must not muck up the audio file matching
What is lacking here is practice exercises. I think there should be enough exercises ideally to have one new exercise page for every lesson page.

When we edit and change, everybody be careful not to make the french different from the audio file whenever possible. Add other examples outside of the block of spoken examples and when trying to make translations more direct, change the english to match the french, not the other way around. Also, lets all discuss our edits more than we actually edit, so these things can be tracked more easily Lotusduck 00:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)lotusduck

Some music
I think that can be a nice idea to add some "music", for example: the song used by the children to learn alphabet... And other song too... It's could seem "stupid" for adults but this "simple" songs "for children" can help to learn a foreign language... (Sorry for English mistakes, im French :P)