Talk:English

Introduction to changes being made
The following books will form Wikibook's English book:

1) English in Use (previously known as "English")

2) English for Beginners (previously known as "English as an Additional Language")

3) English for B2 Students (currently under development in my userspace)

4) FCE English

5) Teaching English (previously known as "Teaching English as an Additional Language")

6) Business English

The idea of this revamp is to combine all of the present "English" books into one book with sections for each area. At present it is impossible for those wishing to learn some basic English to actually find the correct book. I also think that each book should have a more specific target audience.

Book 1) is intended for native speakers as a grammar reference. It would also be suitable for advanced learners of English (levels C1 and C2).

Book 2) is intended for elementary learners of English (non-natives). It should be targetted towards levels A1 and A2.

Book 3) is intended for intermediate students at levels B1 and B2.

Book 4) is intended for B2 level students preparing for the University of Cambridge FCE examination.

Book 5) is intended for teachers who teach English as a foreign language. This book will mainly focus on teaching practice and theory and not on specific grammar.

Book 6) is intended for business students (level B1 and B2 maybe) who need English for specific purposes like meetings and telephoning.

Explanation of Levels
These levels correspond to the European Framework for Languages.

A1 students are those who are able to say simple sentences about themselves and complete some forms requiring information.

A2 students have usually studied English for at least a year and have a passing knowledge of tenses and can produce short sentences about themselves.

B1 students are able to have conversations about simple topics but make still make frequent mistakes.

B2 students have usually studied English for at least 3-4 years. They are starting to master English grammar and their vocabulary is substantial.

C1 students are advanced and have usually studied English for more than 5 years. Often their level of English is better than native speakers and they can converse about any topic.

C2 students may still make the occasional mistake but their English is very advanced and they can listen or read any kind of material and produce writing about any topic. Generally a C2 student has a knowledge of the English language greater than that of most native speakers.

Other possibilities
It would be nice to incorporate some audio and possibly video files in the English books. This is one area where we are lacking when compared to other language text books on Wikibooks. Some tests will be needed for each book and we should work to ensure that material isn't duplicated - vocabulary pages can be repeated, for instance, for different areas.

Any other ideas
''Please list any other ideas or suggestions that you have for the redevelopment of the Wikibook's English module.

Language course on Wikibooks?
After having created several courses on Wikibooks myself, I have come to the conclusion that it is not a suitable format.

First of all, it is not possible to create interactive exercises (and hence a lot of courses completely lack exercises). Second, inclusion of multimedia content of any kind is difficult. There are also materials that could be used under an educational license (such as songs) that can't be used in Wikibooks because that would require putting them under a Creative Commons license. Third, the structure of a wiki is such that everybody occasionally contributes something and eventually loses interest. Since language-teaching books need to have a well-thought out plan and methodology and each lesson has to build on the others, a course written by random occasional contributors will be a mess. See any language-teaching Wikibook of your choice for confirmation of this fact. In order to make a good course, careful planning and a dedicated team who will stay together is absolutely necessary.

This is why I have ultimately decided to create my new language course using Wiki-like collaboration but among a small dedicated team and outside of Wikibooks. It is a free English course for anybody, particularly targetting the need for good English lessons by the underprivileged around the world. Please have a look at this project description and maybe join the effort.

Thank you!

Junesun 20:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The folks involved with Wikiversity are dealing with similar challenges. It's possible to describe a plan and methodology on talk pages, to allow other editors to revise and improve the plan, and to allow yet others to pick up after contributors leave.  The lifetime of a wiki project can easily outlast the duration of an individual's contributions.  Rodasmith 21:55, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Then why doesn't it? Also, why don't plans or methodology discussions commonly exist? And why don't people actually adhere to those plans if they do exist? Three problems: lack of people, ego and incapability. There are too few people on Wikibooks who will contribute. If they do, their egos don't allow them to pick up where others left off, so they either re-arrange or re-write everything or continue in a completely different vein (see for example the Chinese course, where each lesson uses a completely different approach and is in no way related to the previous ones). Lastly, many people writing lessons here are complete amateurs who don't even take the time to read a very basic introduction to course-writing because they are so enthousiastic about proving their knowledge to everybody. Junesun 09:46, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I suspect the lack of awareness of a plan causes behavior (edits that stray from the plan) that you mistakenly interpret as ego and incapability. Rodasmith 16:32, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * There are some serious issues with some language books on Wikibooks but there are also some good examples. The Spanish book comes to mind although even that has room for much improvement.  The best thing about Wikibooks is that books can always be improved and no book is ever finished - it can always be expanded.  I hope some of these comments aren't in reference to my changes to the English book.  I am not responsible for much of this book but I want to make it easier for people to use and easier for people to make better (even editors would have had trouble finding all the relevent parts).  The book that I'm mainly working on is English for B2 students which has barely been started.  It's roughly based on popular printed course books like English File and Language to Go (short and snappy lessons with a range of skills practiced).  My hope is to design a book with a proper target audience (B2 students), a range of media (reading texts, listening scripts, pronunciation practice and practice exercises), tests and stimulating graphics.  The problems with obtaining songs, reading texts, etc. are a big problem though so any help with finding free sources would be appreciated. Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 20:21, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't mean either of you with my comments. You two obviously take great care in preparing lessons. The problem is more the general Wikibooks crowd, who learned something for a couple years in High School and now believe they can write lessons for it. Even an atom scientist might not be able to write a good physics course because it takes much more than simple knowledge of the subject, such as a talent for explaining things, an understanding of didactics and knowledge of the underlying principles of any course, especially that lessons need to build one on the other like a house that you can't start building from the roof, and you can't teach or assume things for which there is no fundament yet. I am keenly feeling the lack of this very understanding in most of the courses. Not to mention that some people just aren't able to spot an advanced grammar part when they use it, e. g. writing "The weather is very nice here. The sun is shining and the sky is clear. If it hadn't rained last night, we would be able to have a picknick" in an early lesson on the weather. There are also issues of having no goal, overwhelming learners, confusing a grammar or a phrase book for a course, and so on.
 * I wouldn't say it's good that Wikibooks are never finished. This means that there will never be a point at which a student can study a Wikibook and be confident that he will reach the pronounced goal. Commercial courses are much more reliable even if just for the fact that companies review their materials and may be facing a lot of refund requests and a loss of reputation if their books don't keep what they promise.
 * Junesun 16:36, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

PDF Version
Can somebody please create a PDF version of this article
 * I intend to create one eventually but unfortunately I don't think any of the present content is 'finished'. Xania [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 19:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Exercises
I have just greatly improved the section on exercises in Authoring Foreign Language Textbooks and also added a few more thoughts on lesson planning and the learning curve. I believe you may find this useful when deciding on which exercises to offer in the English lessons, if only for the fact that I listed many different kinds of exercises and what their particularly advantage is. Only having the same kind of exercise all the time becomes boring, yet you must also ensure that there are always enough exercises and that they do the job of re-inforcing everything that was taught. It's hard to think of all the possibilities when you don't have a list of options, so I created one. Hope this helps. Junesun 17:01, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

La Lingua Franca -> The International Language
Thank you to whoever reverted the change of the subtitle from 'The Lingua Franca' back to 'The International Language'. I don't like the use of the phrase lingua franca because it suggests that this language is more perfect or better than others and as a learner of other languages I know that's not the case. Additionally the use of an Italian phrase which tries to suggest that it is the most important language seems a bit ironic.--ЗAНИA talk 22:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Splitting again
I have split again the bundle of books under the prefix "English/" into their component books and pages. The book titles should not carry the name of their larger topic. To find out about various books on the topic, the user can use a category--Category:English language, a bookshelf--Languages bookshelf, or this page as a kind of disambiguation page--English. Merging material from several books into one book takes more than prefixing all the pages of the books with "English/". Now that the books are separated, they can again be managed, overviewed, and expanded individually, based on their individual style of the organization of their content, their focus, their choice of pictures, and their completeness. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:44, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Excellent! I totally agree. Joining these books into one wasn't a very good idea and - worse - the task was never really finished. Thanks for taking the burden to split the books again! --Martin Kraus (talk) 12:01, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Well screw you all then. Honestly.  Just undo all the work previously done, reproduce it, extend it but for what exactly?--ЗAНИA [[Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg|15px]]talk 22:27, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not sure that I understand your question. I am not sure what to answer to this, other than what I have written in the first paragraph under this heading. Books in Wikibooks should not be prefixed by their subject. When there are several wikibooks on English, they should not be prefixed by "English/". Instead, they should carry their own titles in their names, as they currently do:
 * English for B2 Students
 * English Grammar 2
 * IFTC Jump into English Textbook - Teacher's Manual
 * etc., from Subject:English language
 * That is, their names should not be:
 * English/English for B2 Students
 * English/English Grammar 2
 * English/IFTC Jump into English Textbook - Teacher's Manual
 * It should be clear to a casual reader how many wikibooks there are. No one should end up under the wrong impression that there is one book on English, when in fact there are several. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)