Talk:Developing A Universal Religion/A Universal Religion/Developing A Universal Religion

' An Additional point of view. (Check history page, 19.29, December 25, 2005, for details.) '''

''So, how could the details of this religion be determined, or better, where would the tenets of this religion be found? Clearly, the best fit would be characteristics of this religion that would most resemble the actual reality for humans, and that leaves the question of whether or not a significant amount of this actual reality, outside of the obvious aspects that all can see, can be identified. One writer suggests that evidence for that reality of mankind that seems to be most consistent and arguably logical is the information that has been derived from what is now known as the near death experience, or NDE. Since a Gallup Poll found that about 3% of Americans were determined to have had an experience that could be classified as an NDE, and subsequent studies from other parts of the world have supported this possibly surprising percentage, what is left to determine is whether the depth and consistency of the accounts of these NDE's seem sufficient to build a a working hypothesis from which a kind of trustworthy religion or philosophy can be built. It occurred to this same writer that such information could possibly influence peoples and cultures of the world that have religious tenets that are not in harmony with the peaceful expression of social behavior, possibly even influential enough to reduce terrorism, crime, and even more mild antisocial behaviors. To that end, the following proposal was written to determine the amount of interest and the realistic chances for success that could accrue. PROPOSAL: The following comprises notes intended for personal use in discussing the concept of using NDE information to foster positive intercultural relations among the various religious communities and create a means of approaching religious-terrorist factions with NDE information drawn from significant numbers of experiencers within their own broader-religions communities.

I assert that the use of Near Death Experience information can achieve an understanding between all, but especially the Muslim and Christian communities due to its inherently unifying influence as a spiritual experience that is similar for people of all cultures and all religions. The result of such experiences is awareness of the human family and the artificial divisions that are imposed upon it. Experiencers can be said to learn ‘whom they are’ in the "real reality", or what many may take to be the apparent "real plan of God".

Sufficient numbers of experiencers from the world’s major religions testifying to these truths and communicating them to others within their own communities could prove a substantial means for dissolving intercultural barriers. These experiencers from the various religious communities would likely be willing to join together as a linking network for interfaith communication and ecumenism. Reasons for considering this idea as a counter to terrorism: Terrorism is greatly affecting society by (1) harming the world economy and depleting global financial resources, (2) increasing the gulf between various cultures and religions, and (3) reducing public safety resulting in ever-increasing limitations on personal freedom.

Causes of terrorism apparently include, (among others): 1.	Anger toward countries perceived as allies of enemies 2.	Anger toward countries perceived as natural-resource thieves 3.	Religious ignorance, especially within factions devoted to eliminating infidels out of (1) a sense of duty, and/or (2) belief that such acts constitute a pathway to heaven

The Hypothesis: Terrorism can be reduced by educating perpetrators with facts ‘proving’ their error. The best source of such evidence is those followers of Islam that have had verifiable near death experiences (such as the well-known blind experiencers verifiably “seeing” despite their physical limitations) since polls indicate that near death experiencers (NDEers) almost universally adopt the following beliefs: a.	A spiritual force (God) exists and cares equally for human of both sexes, all races, and all nationalities, and b.	Religion should foster caring and respectful human relationships that are not divisive or harmful

Method of testing the hypothesis: Re-educate religion-driven fanatics using these steps: •	Acquire and package this compelling “evidence”; include scientific reports and peoples’ proofs for the validity of their experiences •	Communicate this packaged evidence to the centers that teach fanaticism and cross-cultural hatred •	Continue this process with ever-new sources of this evidence

Possible steps to achieve these ends: 1.	Poll religious gatherings to identify experiencers and request participation in a research study. 2.	Convene an assembly of the experiencers to verify the universality of their experiences. 3.	If substantiated, publicize the findings using groups of credible representatives from each religion with the goal of defusing aggressive intentions and hostile attitudes within their worldwide affiliates. 4.	Appeal to additional researchers to participate in validating these experiences and their implications, assemble the evidence, and work toward its dissemination and achievement of this goal. 5.	Package the evidence at appropriate stages and disseminate the results to news media. 6.	Expand the program with continued studies and regularly communicate the project’s accomplishments through the media. A Note about this proposal: To many people, this idea may seem absurd. One can counter that by asserting that there seems to be no better solution to the problem caused by modern terrorism. With inherent ramifications for religious beliefs some might judge this to be too delicate, while others might dismiss it as a ‘long-shot’ and not worth a trial. But, it could be argued, what is there to lose by its trial? The concept behind this proposal is simple: No matter whether one believes there is validity in accounts of near death experiencers, learning about this evidence could cause many terrorists to reevaluate their roles in ‘the big-picture’.

Worth mentioning are other possible benefits from publicizing these facts since they are philosophically challenging to all humans. Such benefits could include an improvement in the world’s economy, increase in worldwide spiritual consciousness, and a decrease in crime (just to name a few; others exist, but they are beyond the scope of this proposal).

Please note that the evidence of NDE verification is voluminous. One sample is in an article from The Lancet; (http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf). Others are available from the International Association for Near Death Studies, (http://www.IANDS.org). Accounts of well-known experiencers are also found in the press. Examples include those for Senator Bob Kerrey and King Hussein (found in Vanity Fair, Jan. 1992 page 98, Bob Kerrey’s Odyssey by Peter J. Boyer, and, The New York Times, Apr. 22, 1984, Section 6, page 24, King Hussein’s Delicate Balance, by Judith Miller, Cairo bureau chief, respectively).

Several well-known NDE researchers would certainly be available for consultation. People agreeing that such a proposal could be attempted and that the degree of success could at least be meaningful, could contact this writer at eriess@cinci.rr.com.

puzzle bits
I am pleased to find somebody working on a project such as this. It reminds me of a project I started on belief.net and abandoned due to overwhelming political noise.

My project was called "puzzle bits". The primary axioms were these.

1. All of the world religions have been politicized and emptied of useful content.

2. All of the world religions could in theory support a spiritual life, but this is generally not the case for any of them.

3. All of the worlds religions have good and bad within them, and it is possible using modern logic and personal experiences to determine the difference.

4. The truth within any given religion is not exclusive. Gods assorted attempts to relate to human beings were never meant to exclude as real Gods other assorted attempts to relate to human beings. All of the religions which have exclusionary ethnocentric predjudice are wrong on that count. All religions were somebodies attempt to have a spiritual life.

5. The most meaningful task ahead of us then, is to extricate the good from the bad, in all of the religions of the world, and then to put the peices of the puzzle that is obviously generated by that process together.

6. This requires us to make a very large database of the beliefs and axioms of the assorted world religions (allready being done for us) and then to begin sorting the gems from the trash. (Not done yet very well by anybody as far as I have seen.)

7. The nature of God is also revealed in other paradigms aside from religious ones; Quantum Mechanics has now proven the existence of Information and Consciousness as operational forces in their own right in the universe, for example.

8. God does not discriminate on the basis of race, creed, color, sex, age, sexual preference, country of residence, or anything else. God is an equal opportunity God.

9. Spiritual Paradigms that function operate to connect the human animal to altered states of consciousness. The best and most functional reality models in existence for this purpose come to us from Psychology and Self Hypnosis.

10. Once in an altered state of consciousness, Spiritual life means connected and relating as well as communicating with the forces of Nature, The web of life, non-local information, The mind of God, The Ashkashic Records, And Angelic Intelligences.

11. The result of Spiritual experiences that are real are opening into greater levels of compassion, love, and stronger senses of moral and social responsibility.

12. Spiritual Paradigms that are politicized function to limit us from obtaining altered states of consciousness, in order to control people and thus in order for the "rulers" to stay in power.

13. God promotes A Democratic, Meritocratic, Free Enterprise, Socialist form of government, which is Utopian in nature.

14. God is beyond human conception and thus definition, no archetype, personification, or characterization will ever be sufficient to define God.

Prometheuspan 02:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello Prometheuspan:

Sorry for the delay in responding: we have been on vacation.

Some interesting ideas!

But, how do you know that, for instance, your “bits” numbered 8 and 13 are correct? --- I don't try to number the bits, i examine them piecemeal. Its called axiomatic and syllogistic analysis, and its the labor of applying conversational logic. Putting the puzzle together happens after. Prometheuspan 00:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC) --

And how do you sort the “gems from the trash”? How do you decide which is which? Prometheuspan 00:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Cognitive, rational, logical discussion pro and con, each axiom, its attendant syllogisms, and its history and propaganda attachments. Prometheuspan 00:32, 23 February 2006 (UTC) -

David Hockey 21:49, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

- Hello Prometheuspan:

I asked "how do you sort the “gems from the trash”?" because making any decision requires having a "goal" one seeks. (See the extract from Ch 3 Summary, below.) So, I am asking, "what goal do you seek" when you state, 'this is a gem, but this is trash.' ? Prometheuspan 02:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC) Truth as it is rendered given logical cogency and validity. Or, a reasonable facsimile thereof. Prometheuspan 02:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Chapter Three. Summary


 * Before moving to Part Two, it may be helpful to summarize a few of the points that have been made in the past three chapters. The following are important.


 *  The universe’s causal construction dictates that inhabitants who think and act rationally have a greater chance of surviving, procreating and succeeding, than those who do not. This, in turn, has favoured the genetic continuation of mutations which help minds to work in this manner.


 *  Practical problem solving and decision making entails consulting external environments to find the criteria that acceptable solutions must meet, then consulting the mind’s internal environment to find what personal purpose [i.e., gaol] is sought.


 *  Moral problem solving and decision making entails consulting the mind’s own environment to find both the criteria for acceptable solutions, and the purpose being sought. Mental environments are always invented ones (composed, as we saw in Chapter One, Thinking, from linked memories of perceived events, experiences and learnings, all tinged by the choice of words used when envisioning them consciously), and have no reality outside the minds of those who subscribe to them.

David Hockey 15:08, 23 February 2006 (UTC) Prometheuspan 02:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC) right, well, thats a good cut and paste. Moral problem solving is a problematic thing for logic, because many moral issues are not translatable into logical terms. Still, it can be done, and as soon as i get around to deciding that wikibooks is ready for it and that I'm ready for wikibooks, I'll start two different books, one on Eclectic Integrative Comparative World Religions, and one on Ethics. I can't do any worse than has allready been done.

It is safe to say however that with enough perspective and actual information, many of these things approach a rational aproximation of truth value. For instance, assorted justifications for genocide in the Bible are trash. Throwing them out is eventually made easier when one realizes that most of them were spliced in by the Cathars in the first place. Stoning children is trash. Its safe to say that even the jews figured that out a long time ago. The list goes on and on. In each case, history, logic, and a lucid mind for unveiling propaganda are the most important tools. Prometheuspan 02:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

NDEs
The reason why NDEs aresuch an effective means of telling us about the nature of reality is that once we are dead, we begin to travel up the tree of life. (Qaballah) Visiting the other side gives special dispensation to understanding what the other side is.

However, I am not sure that NDEs will ever be sufficient for generating a whole religion, for a variety of reasons.

1. NDEs confirm the tiferet problem; People do tend to experience what they expected to experience as a lens.

2. NDE travelers generally don't make it any higher on the tree than Tiferet, in fact, most experiences sound like they don't even get any further than Yesod.

3. NDE travelers aren't generally motivated to become missionaries as much as to make changes in their own lives...theres an aspect to journeys that are inherantly deeply personal in the same sense as say for instance, sex.

For these and other reasons, I think that NDEs will be one of several invaluable resources, but will not ultimately proove useful outside of defining the nature of the lower third of the Tree.



er, duh, sorry about the accidental anonymity, i am a TOTAL newbie... Prometheuspan 02:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Please sign contributions to talk pages
Please sign contributions to talk pages by adding ~ (four consecutive tilde characters) to the end of the text. --kwhitefoot 22:30, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Developing more content for the book
The following is some draft writing that can be edited and included in an appropriate spot, or not.

There can only be one real universal religion. Well, that is not exactly accurate. Unless the truth is that there is no one truth and that there are multiple truths, but then that would be the ultimate truth. (note) Ultimately there is one truth. There could be no God, in theory. There could be no supreme deity. There could be a supreme deity. This deity could be a male or female in theory, or it could be no gender. The nature of God could be comprehended or it could not be. How could anything be comprehended if there is nothing to comprehend? What if it is all just materialism? What if it is all just atoms and molecules that allow for some people to be deluded that they are perceiving some spiritual feelings?

How could any person know what they cannot see with their eyes? How could a universal religion be developed if none of this could be seen? What if Buddhism is the one true religion? What if they got everything right? Then everything else must be wrong.

What if Christianity is the one true religion? Then why develop a new universal religion?

Yet, within Christianity, there are many different denominations. Which one is "right"? Could they all be right? Could they all be equally true? Could they all be united into one?

What if the quantum physicists are right? What about the many worlds interpretation?

...

So then what senses could be used to determine what should be included in the one universal religion? Do we not want this religion to correspond with the truth? If it is going to be dogmatic, don't we want this dogma to be right? Must it be dogmatic?

Perhaps certain principles should be used to determine what is the true religion, and therefore could be applied with ease universally.

Hypothetically, what if the followers experienced bliss, well being, and health all the time? This may or may not be realistic. But if this occured, would it be fair to say this is closer to the truth than a religion whose followers and adherents experience constant suffering, pain and misery?

That is that. --Emesee (talk) 00:23, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

note - but then how could it be there there are multiple truths? What are the dynamics of this? more...

Are there certain things that are unknowable? Could it be that the ultimate truth is unknowable? Would that just be something we would have to accept. Or could it be unknowable if it is unknowable?

People do seem to claim to know. People take an oaths to partake in poverty and abstain from sex. Based on what they think they know, or at least have faith in.

Determining - Notes. . . to be formulated more clearly later, perhaps...

Direct revelation

If the Pope is infallible....

Emesee (talk) 21:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Religion is not just one thing - belief in a supreme being or obedience to a legal code, rather, it is a culture of many things, particularly preferences and habits that have helped this or that tribe/nation/state to prevail over its neighbours, and thus survive conquest, wars, disease, and famines that afflicted the ancient world.

Religion hitherto has been intricately divisive - 'the good' versus 'the rest' or 'us' versus 'them'. The Universal declaration of Human Rights which was signed in 1948 is close to the ideal of a universal religion, but then too is the idea of democracy, free markets and much else that corrupt governments and dictators abhor.

The idea of a supreme being or World leader leads to deeply flawed people like Hitler assuming the mantle of ultimate ruler and making poor decisions because they go unchallenged. Before Hitler it was divine rights of kings and much other so-called religious mumbo jumbo that kept despots in power.

Any modern religion would have to balance personal rights with collective needs, not the aspirations of some latter-day 'God' such as 'democracy', 'free trade', or 'human rights'. Life is a messy business.

Where in Europe people used to live some 40 years or so, most now can expect twice that lifespan. Elsewhere in the world life expectation is actually falling below 40 years. In some countries obesity and eating disorders are as common as famine elsewhere. These are today's survival challenges. No man is an island, complete unto himself...