Talk:Computers for Beginners

Computers for Beginners
I've moved this back to something closer to the original title 'Never used a Computer'. This book is about flat-out basics for absolute beginners. For a more specific tutorial on Windows XP, go to Windows XP for Beginners. -- Klafubra 23:34, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * If it is to bear the name "Computers for Beginners" then it should be about COMPUTERS in general&#8212;hardware, basic graphical user interface concepts, and software concepts. I am very irked by the use of terminology like "double-clicking the c: drive" to explain file systems or whatever other nonsense is herein written.  All of the Windows XP crap should be moved out of a book called "Computers for Beginners". A subsection of this book could be "Operating Systems" which MIGHT introduce operating system basics.  If nothing else, it could point to "Windows for Beginners" (note the lack of self-dating references!), "Macs for Beginners", "Linux for Beginners", etc. etc.&#8212;Kbolino 06:13, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Miscellaneous
As a passing comment, it may be worthwhile to have a section on how to explore in a computer. In the limited sample of my family members and friends, those that are computer illiterate are most afraid of breaking the computer, which makes them afraid to try out new things. I'd argue that the ability to explore a computer on your own is a key skill to get anywhere in using a computer. The section could have some info like what is safe to do, what you should avoid doing, ways to try out things if you don't know what they do, etc.

--Naerbnic 21:54, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Help my bewk. We could be 1337 together. ^_^;; --Cyberman 04:02, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Naerbnic - That's a great idea. I'll try to fit it in somewhere sometime. Cyberman - I'm kind of busy with my book, but I'll check yours out and see if I can add anything. By the way, I know nothing about A+ cerfification. :-) 83.28.52.96 (discuss) 23:45, 10 January 2012 (UTC) --Kram 23:05, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I wrote a bit on web browsing, but there is a paradox here. If the poor computer-illiterate doesn't even know how to browse the web, how are they even reading this book anyway?! I think wikibooks really needs an easy way to export PDFs or something, books like this one can be printed and given out to under-developed countries etc.

--Sideris 18:29, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

First of all Sideris, you should move your bit on web browsing to the actual chapter instead of the TOC. Also, I copied the text from the website, put it in OOo Writer, and exported it as a pdf. This worked okay, but it would be better if there was a program that would take the source for the wikibook and make a pdf out of it.

--Kram 17:09, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, sorry I put it in the TOC, it was a moment of confusion :-) I will move it when I find some free time. About printing: it is easy to print one-page articles from wikipedia in the way you described, but the structure that wikibooks follow would make printing one whole wikibook very tedious. You need a program for that (and again, if I find the time, I'll sit down and write it myself!)

--Sideris 11:54, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

We need something that can teach children how to use the computer.

Paradox
I agree with kram that there is a paradox here - how can a person who doesn't "know how to move a mouse" browse through this?

Windows XP for Beginners
I moved this here because: almost all new computer users will have Windows XP, it is impossible to accurately teach several operating systems, and it's almost all Windows XP stuff anyway.--Naryathegreat 01:12, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Also, do you really think that anyone who is new to computers would use Linux, I mean, come on, get serious- new users dont go out and buy Linux, period.--Naryathegreat 01:19, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * They don't go out and buy any OS, period. They do get Linux on the $199 Walmart computers though, and they get MacOS X on Macs.


 * Okay, smartguy, yes, they do buy an OS sometimes, but no, not when getting a computer. And no one who buys that $199 computer with linux will be happy they did-they are bad for new users, period.  And there's a reason you never see REAL books about all kinds of different OS's, for instance, maybe you might see Mac OS X and Windows, but you can't describe how to use the trillion plus linux os's in one book (well, since they all are just Windows 98-GUI clones, maybe you can).--Naryathegreat 04:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see why you think so. Maybe you would not like a Linux computer. Somebody expecting to run a particular Windows-only game will of course be unhappy. The modern Linux box can do all the basic grandma tasks though. If you're thinking about the command line (like a fancy DOS box, ugh), you haven't seen a modern end-user-oriented Linux distribution.


 * It may be news to you, but many people only use the web browser. Consider that this provides email access, online tax prep, all the forums one could want, flash-based games for the grandkids, wikipedia, and so on. Linux boxes even continue functioning long after they are purchased, while Windows boxes are often replaced because of spyware-related slowdowns and crashes. AlbertCahalan 22:19, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * After playing with ubuntu for awhile, I've honestly considered installing it on my grandmother's computer, as it is actually EASIER to use in many ways than Windows XP, at least for most tasks a basic (read;Non-professional/gaming) user will need. I'd like to know where you get the idea that all Linux OS are clones of Win98- Quite a few have more complex GUIs, or different GUIs altogether. Just because something uses windows doesn't mean it's a  Windows ripoff. Actually, if anything, MSWin ripped off Xwindows. X was released in 1984, and the first Windows OS to have actual windows was released in 1987. --69.247.164.232 06:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm okay with the name change, but there is some Linux information in the book already. Should it be removed? --Kram 21:01, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * If this book aims to about Windows XP, then anything not about windows xp should not be here. So I deleted a section on creating symbolic links in linux. Delete any more if you find 'em. Reub2000 01:48, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

At least until someone creates a Linux for Beginners. I'm sorry I changed it without saying anything, but to me it just seemed common sense. If I offended someone, I'm sorry.--Naryathegreat 23:35, 23 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the change by Naryathegreat was a good idea. I would like to change it back to Never Used a Computer. Here is why:


 * Windows XP will be obsolete in a few years. It would be nice to make this book a bit more generic and future proof.


 * This books includes info about hardware, as it should. Absolute beginners need to be informed about hardware just as much as software. They also find it hard to distinguish between hardware and software, so both should be included in the same book.


 * There is a lot more to computers than just the operating system. The info on the internet is totally independent of the operating system.


 * Naryathegreat says it is impossible to accurately teach several operating systems. As the original name implied, the book is meant for absolute square-one beginners. They don't need to be taught accurately about any operating system. They only need to know the very basics, which are similar enough for XP, Linux and MacOS.  It is not hard to include supplementary info where there are differences. Why do we need to exclude non-Windows users categorically if they can be catered for with little effort?


 * Naryathegreat says almost all new computer users will have Windows XP. What he has failed to ask is whether people reading this book will have Windows XP. People in developing nations will find this book more useful than people in the West who can afford tutorials. We should also aim this book at the vast population in developing nations purchasing the "100 dollar PC" over the next few years, most likely a Linux PC.


 * Naryathegreat says it's almost all Windows XP stuff anyway. Not it's not. There is a large section on hardware and the internet in general, and some users are already trying to delete the section because of the name.

I have nothing against a book called Windows XP for Beginners and Intermediates but this does not seem to be the intention of this book. -- Klafubra 18:33, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Organizing the book
Hi there, you have a nice book that grows well. I'd like to suggest two things: Windows XP for Beginners/Introduction Windows XP for Beginners/Buying A Computer Windows XP for Beginners/Flat Out Basics and so on. (You can move pages easily with the "move" command on top of the page, once you are logged in). If you need any help or advice, just ask. --Andreas 20:05, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) On the main page, you don't have to put links to subpages into sections . It just invites people to click on the "edit" button to the right and put their information to the wrong place, and you have to write this "If you want to add stuff, click on the chapter please!" line, which, frankly, I have not seen on other Wikibooks. Why? Because they don't use headings for links. Have a look at these simple examples: Hamster Care, How To Build A Computer, CPAM with TWW, ...
 * 2) There are several ways to organize books (see the current discussion at Hierarchy naming scheme), but I would recommend you to change to a more standardized delimiter, using either ":" or "/". The latter (subpages via "/") will give you the additional benefit of an autmatic link back to the main page of your book. Your subpages would then be organized as

Thanks Andreas, I think I'll fix the layout right now. --Kram 15:53, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * On the How To Build A Computer wikibook, we have a simplified TOC, then a link to the more complete TOC. I think that would be a good idea for this book too. Reub2000 22:43, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Removal of Computer Buying 101 Chapter
Since it's about XP, and not Computer Buying 101, I believe the "Buying a Computer" section isn't really appropriate for this book. --icez

This book was originally for people who never used a computer. Naryathegreat then insisted on calling it Windows XP for Beginners. I do think it is appropriate to include hardware because a) beginners find it hard to distingush between hardware and software b) beginners will find the information very useful. Klafubra 17:56, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The past and the future.
Windows is past, GNU/Linux is future... :-)

--Gengiskanhg 23:32, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Right on, Gengiskanhg. I stopped working on this book shortly after it was renamed to Windows XP for Beginners, and I think I'll come back now. But let's not start a flame war on the talk page. --Kram 22:45, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Relevance
Many of the topics are only relevant to Windows. I have worked on it a little today and have found it difficult to expand some of the criteria to other operating systems. The theory is good to know, but specific examples are also nice. Perhaps a disclaimer to the user telling them that many examples in the book are using Windows XP?

Possible Fork
Before I started my book Basic Computing Using Windows I was sure I checked for other similar existant books... but I only found this one today. I'm not sure if my book really forks this one or if they are different enough to leave separate, but I have a hunch they have a lot of duplicate material -- SingpolymaT E 15:55, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

programming
I am in favor of more people learning at least a little about programming. However, I suspect that subject is outside the scope of this book. I think we should, instead, finish the book with "Congratulations! You're no longer a beginner!" and suggest the next books towards becoming an expert -- books such as Web Design and Computer programming and perhaps Non-Programmer's Tutorial for Python.

Are there any objections to ripping the "Computers for Beginners/Programming" module out of this book and putting it into some more relevant book? --DavidCary 21:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Just an idea
Maybe it is half wrong... putting some OS-specific info here, in this book ?

My idea is that Computers for beginners does not necessarily imply  for beginners The most info we should include about OS's are a definition and maybe only general description, but also common OS pieces of advice, like a windowed graphical interface and interaction between the user and the machine.

Programming is just going too far. Considering this book targets beginners, it should be as simple and concise as it can.

Also, I disagree that Linux is not approachable to beginners. I admit, in the very short time I tried to use it, I didn't even manage to install or build applications on certain flavors, but if I'd have really been interested, I would have read some info on the Internet... however, for browsing the web and editing documents it does an almost perfect job. Many computer beginners would appreciate a tutorial on using a free (I don't know if they really care about the open part) OS, don't you?

Another point is that I, for example, prefer Windows 2000 over XP. I only use XP because it is a dependency of the latest Visual Studio, which I use to program. I'd rather not restrict to XP in this article since there are still many computers running older OS's.

That being said, I was thinking about writing something like this since I often come into people who buy a computer but look at the mouse as if it were a radio (I sold computers in the past) and some think that the screen is the one that does the processing part... and that has to change. I'd gladly help edit this book, but I've never done it before and I'm not going to start right now. Still, I'm interested and I will keep an eye on it for the future though. I really want to help.

So, are you with me or against me when I say that we should have a separate book about computers and different books for different OS's ?

This should also answer the question of whether to integrate this article in the Basic computing using windows book


 * I agree with your first sentence. This book should be vendor and technology neutral. For specific operating systems its best to write separate books, and link them from this book. This also applies to computer hardware, it should not be specific to IBM compatible PC's but it should also descibe different kinds of computers, for example what server and mainframes are, what smartphone is, etc, it should explain what user interface is, and should not mention only GUI, or monitor+keyboard, but also teletype, touchscreen, etc...it should mention most popular technologies.
 * This book should explain basic concepts about computers like: user interface, operating system, application, processor, central processing unit, peripherial processor or device, main memory, storage memory, hardware, software. etc...


 * About programming - it should be mentioned and explained what does it mean.


 * About "open part" - I think that it should be explained what open source means, and it should explain technical merits, and benefits of this aproach for users and programmers..