Cookbook talk:Shepherd's Pie I

Discussion outside shepherd's pie
I am thinking of taking Shepherd's Pie and  Pate Chinois and mucking with them as I have the  Brownies and  Candied Sweet Potatoes. And, since I have my own shepherd's pie recipe, I may just add a third while I am going through the trouble - as I did with the sweet potatoes. I would be turning the name pate chinois into the secondary name for it's entry, since it is a misnomer like french fries or indian corn. Nmontague 20:48, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * At least 2 of the 3 recipes on the Candied Sweet Potatoes page simply don't qualify because they involve mashing the sweet potatoes. The other recipe is mostly apples and raisins, so it really isn't standard, but it might just barely kind of squeak by as a Candied Sweet Potatoes recipe. Probably the disambigation page should just be deleted. The recipes came about because somebody put a link on the Cookbook:Requested_Recipes page. Somebody else then supplied the wrong thing. I tried to help the original requester (and myself, as I need the recipe too) by adding a Glazed Sweet Potatoes link, which is really the same thing under a different name. (it's still not there) Proper glazed/candied sweet potatoes are chunks about 1 inch in diameter, baked (while covered?) in a sugary sauce until soft. The sauce probably involves brown sugar, butter, cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. AlbertCahalan 07:05, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, since I'd never eaten them myself and only had a recipe for it in the ol' family cookbook I split what to me was two good enough recipes and added one that I thought fit better. Since they were  submitted as Candied Sweet Potatoes, I figured the submitter would know better than I.  If you'd like, I could change Diana's to simply being the Candied Sweet Potatoes recipe, since I only added the name because she was the one who wrote in the recipe.  Nmontague 15:54, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer to reserve "Candied Sweet Potatoes" and "Glazed Sweet Potatoes" for the standard recipe. I guess that means deleting the disambiguation page until a proper recipe shows up. If we someday are lucky enough to have two normal recipes, then a disambiguation page would make sense. AlbertCahalan 01:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * "Diana's Candied Sweet Potatoes" could become "Candied Sweet Potatoes with Apples and Raisins", but the current name is fine. Aside from the extra fruit, the recipe doesn't seem to be all that abnormal. I'm not totally sure about the honey; I suspect molasses or brown sugar would be more typical. AlbertCahalan 01:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll ask some of the family for their cookbooks and see if they have a more plain jane version. Hell, considering I have like 8 I can probably find one myself.  Nmontague 01:51, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Cottage pie or shepherd's pie
I can find no prime reference to support the use of cottage pie for beef and shepherd's pie for lamb/mutton - except to say that Merriam-Webster on-line implies that cottage pie especially is made with beef. However, Merriam-Webster is a USA source and this is a traditional British dish. Researching prime British reference sources, I find that the two terms are entirely synonymous.

Sources I have personally referred to are:


 * Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management by Isabella Beeton, 1861.
 * Cassell's New Universal Cookery Book by Lizzie Heritage published by Cassell and Company, 1894
 * The Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition, published by Oxford University Press, 1933
 * The Constance Spry Cookery Book by Constance Spry and Rosemary Hume, published by J M Dent & Sons, 1956
 * Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, published by Merriam-Webster, 1983
 * The Glutton's Glossary: A Dictionary of Food and Drink Terms by John Ayto, published by Routledge, 1990
 * The Chambers Dictionary, Ninth Edition, published by Chambers Harrap Publishing Ltd, 2003
 * Concise Oxford English Dictionary, Eleventh Edition (Revised), published Oxford University Press, 2006

Of shepherd's pie, the 1983 Webster's does not specify the meat, and makes no mention of cottage pie. From this, it seems that the term "shepherd's pie" was the one favoured in the USA, and that the use of two terms for the same dish has very recently been rationalised by attributing "shepherd's pie" to mutton or lamb, for no reason other than shepherds being obviously concerned with sheep more than cattle.

Often Stranger Than Fiction (talk) 07:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Aren't shepherds only concerned with sheep? Anyway regardless, the lamb/beef distinction certainly seems to be a modern consensus, and when this topic comes up in forums there are frequently people saying that they were taught this by a parent or grandparent. The cited recipe books are old, as are most of the dictionaries, and the distinction can also be found in more modern recipes. It may be a case that dictionaries are now in need of updating to reflect more popular usage. I must admit that I used not to draw a distinction myself, but with dishes nowadays typically made with the fresh meat of choice rather than one being confined to using whatever scraps could be salvaged from previous meals, it is definitely useful to have distinct terms.
 * Moggie2002 (talk) 14:40, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Shepherd's pie or shepherds' pie?
This is what confuses me at the moment. If the wording is used in a context relating to the class of people known as shepherds as a whole rather than being attributed to a specific shepherd, shouldn't the correct usage be shepherds'? For example, "On our farm, the shepherd's pie of choice is shepherds' pie". Without a distinction, another example might be an unsolvable riddle: "The carpenter made a shepherd's pie and the shepherd made a leek pie. The best pie was the shepherd's pie. Did the best pie contain meat?".

Moggie2002 (talk) 15:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Please change that picture, people
The current one is frightening.

Comments on the article
This article is confusing and incomplete. Peas, corn and carrots seem to be part of the recipe but it's not clear when they come into play and how they should be cooked. The temperature for the oven is not given so a wild guess would probably spoil the taste of the final product. At the bottom of the article, there is a link that points to "sheperds pie" which to me seems just a redundant copy of this article. Besides, the two versions vary in terms of spelling, quantity of meat and potatoes and use of oil. The two articles should definitely be merged. The article also lists "Pate Chinois" and "Pâté chinois". They both point to the same article so the first link is absolutely unnecessary, even more because the spelling is improper. The photograph that presents the shepherd's pie is truly frightening. It should really be changed. I do agree on the fact the shepherd's pie is made with lamb and the cottage pie is made with beef. Dictionaries don't have the last word. Cooking books are preferred when it comes to these things. Moreover, shepherds taking care of cattle don't make much sense.

ICE77 -- 67.164.28.103 (talk) 06:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)